A few more questions...simple ones I promise

[OlderNOTwiser]

When I first started this grow I had no idea I'd be on a weedcentric forum in a few weeks time. I had no idea that MG soil and its time release goodies was likely a bad thing (or at least a tad bad). I really had no idea I'd end up with a grow tent, lights, fan and scrubber and all of the rest that comes along with this "hobby". (First indoor grow lining up to start as soon as I get the outdoor grow sufficiently dry to vacate the tent.) No clue you could train and Bonzai these things and all of the fimming and topping and supercalafragalisticing and all the rest. However, as I'm nearing harvest and the weather seems to be holding for me with no frost yet and none in the ten day forecast, there are still little questions.

Like this one sent in by a viewer...oh, wait that's just me...

Since I was just messing with the lone bagseed I had I didn't keep notes or anything so do not truly know when it was started. I can get to first week of June for certain though. What I probably should have paid more attention to was the start of flowering. I have a pic from August tenth that shows the first pistils and confirmation of gender. Another pic dated August 22nd is the first I'd say I had "budlets". Is that the date for flowering or a week or so later when they began to actually look more flower/bud like? Would that mean I'm in the fourth week of flowering and about to enter week five? The answer is becoming important as I think I've still got 3 to 5 weeks to go and frost will not hold off that long. I need to decide (soon) if I'm going to wait until the day prior to frost and harvest or try to squeeze her through into the basement for a day or two and send her back outside if weather permits.

Another one from the mailbag goes like this: This is an outdoor grow and as such I've left her all bushy as she wants to be. Sun has been reaching deep and we've had plenty of air movement. Now we're well into flower and she's cannibalizing the larger leaves for nitrogen. Do I continue to leave these yellowed things even though they're no longer making food but becoming it? I started to remove a few of the most depleted ones and it is beginning to look like I did a defoliation or a beginners lollipop. Is this post prime defoliation a normal thing to do?

I was probably two weeks late switching to flower nutes as I clearly didn't realize she was in flowering already. When I switched I stopped the nitrogen heavy bottle and switched to TigerBloom and now I realize the schedule (am I the only one confused by these?) has all three bottles being used until week 12 or so. I thought I was losing fan leaves too quickly and started to introduce the N bottle back in but only at 1/4 strength. Planning to do so for the next few cycles and then retire it. I'm looking at the colors of leaves closely as I don't want too much N in there this late.

So, was reintroducing the N this late bad or a good thing?

See, that wasn't so bad was it?

Side note: a few weeks back I had to trim the lowest branches to be able to secure her from blowing over so easily. I kept a couple of budlets knowing they were like Cannabis Veal but it is dry enough to try at least. If momma gets to harvest she's gonna be wicked!

 

[SoOrbudgal]

LOL dang dude...…..a pic would be helpful to see her buds and whole plant. So your thinking she has been in flower 6wks not knowing strain she could go 12wks hopefully less. If you got yellow leaves get rid of them but cut them don't pull and tear tissue. You did right by adding N back alittle won't hurt, but you want the P & K most of all now. If the yellowing has stopped do to you adding more N then i'd hold off using it anymore.

And write on a calendar or ??. Research the strain of seed, how it grows and how long. Good luck I know you got this.

 

[az2000]

I had no idea that MG soil and its time release goodies was likely a bad thing (or at least a tad bad).

Don't believe everything you hear about MiracleGro. Most of the sentiment is people repeating a meme. They haven't used it. It's just fashionable. I think most of it originates from a dislike for "big agra," Monsanto, etc. Scotts is affiliated somehow. (But, Scotts owns General Hydroponics, Botanicare, Sun Systems. It's increasingly not feasible to hold anything Scotts in derision.).

I've seen people on forums who grow using MG Organic Choice potting mix. It's half as strong as the "Potting Mix" product you're referring to, and not time-released. It's more organically based nutrients which the plant can access as it needs it. Not synthetics released each watering.

So, you're right. The flagship "Potting Mix" product isn't ideal. But, there are people who use it. BillyKidd is growing a couple plants in it now. He has a friend who grows in it, likes it.

A lot of the MiracleGro rhetoric can turn into "truther" proportions. I've never grown in any of the soils. But, I have grown a plant in my soil (56% Pro-Mix HP, 22% Kellogg Patio Plus, 22% perlite) using MG Tomato fertilizer (18-18-21). I'm growing a plant right now in Kellogg Palm & Cactus potting mix (straight out of the bag). I started to use Tomato. But, this potting mix is so N-deficient I had to switch to MG All-Purpose (24-8-16). I even have supplement that with Pennington fish emulsion to get to an NPK ratio around 3.8-1-1.5. By itself, All-Purpose is ratio 3-1-2. (Knock on wood, but it's growing as well as anyhing else I've grown, after sorting out that deficiency.).

I'm planning on growing in cactus mix again using the new MiracleGro Performance Organics ("all purpose plant nutrition"). That's 11-3-8 (ratio 3.67-1-2.67). That sounds *perfect* for this cactus mix. I like the K being higher. I usually make it higher when I grow, but this grow is a test, trying to keep it simple. (I'm not even pH'ing anything. Just a typical "grow on a whim" example where someone could go to the hardware store and grow a plant. The PO product would simplify that by eliminating the fish emulsion I have to use. I.e., it's a little complicated the way I'm doing this grow, mixing two products to get that ratio.

There's probably better products than MG. But, you don't need specialty nutrients to grow.

 

[Tersky]

Hey az2000, I have never done soil but am interested in doing so so have been doing some research. You said you are planning on growing in cactus mix using MG Performance organics? what do you mean by that? Aren't they two separate mixes? Are you mixing them or using them ate different times?

 

[az2000]

@Terksy, I know what you mean. MG makes Performance Organics potting mix. (It's something like 0.19-0.03-0.03.). I'm referring to the "all-purpose plant nutrition." A dry fertilizer (11-3-8). I was thinking that would create the same proportion of N as I do now using a 3-1-2 ratio product, and a 5-1-1 ratio product (mixed together, for about 240ppm total). Plus it has the higher P which I think is the one thing I'd like to improve.

I'm going to grow in cactus again, and try that 3.67-1-2.67 ratio product. It might be the perfect fit.

I was planning to grow the cactus mix again, but mix it with some soil so it wouldn't be so deficient (and maybe could be grown with MG Tomato fertilizer, which was my original plan). But, I've been thinking the MG Performance Organics container mix (the stuff I think you were referring to, about 0.19-0.03-0.03) could be the right thing to mix with the cactus potting mix. That NPK ratio doesn't make sense to me. It doesn't sound like a balanced potting mix. But... the cactus potting mix is extremely deficient in N. It has good drainage, fast drying. I like it in many ways. But, wow (I never thought I would feed a plant nearly 4-1-1.5. That's a lot of nitrogen, as a proportion). That "container mix's" whacky NPK might complement the cactus mix.

If want to use soil the first time, my "go to" soil is 56% Pro-Mix HP (which contains 35% perlite), 22% Kellogg Patio Plus as a "soil" component, and has 5% perlite, and 22% more perlite. I'm not really that precise measuring it. I do 3 scoops of Pro-Mix, and 1 heaping scoop of Patio plus and Perlite (each). It just comes out something between 60-20-20 (3-1-1 scoop), and 50-25-25 (2-1-1 scoops). I notice if I do 3-1-1 scoops, it dries a little too fast for me. 2-1-1 scoops dries a little slower. (So, I do 2- and 1-1 heaping each.). I add 1-1/2 Tbsp/gal (of mix) Fertilome Hi-Yield Agricultural lime. Blend it together very well.

I'm sure there's nothing special about that. (I'm sure others have their own mixes they like.). But, I've got the nutrients dialed in (Grow More - Sea Grow). I've been using that soil and nutrients for 5 years. I'm just playing around with Cactus mix an MG fertilizer to see how it works. I don't think I'd recommend it yet (unless you want to experiement, like I am.). If you want something that works, and you can follow, I can give you my feeding "schedule" (for my soil I usually grow in). I never have to ph it. It grows nicely, rapid wet/dry cycles like soilless. But. its technically a soil (due to 22% Kellogg Patio Plus).

 

[OlderNOTwiser]

I was rushed earlier when I first posted. I realized a bit later that I never uploaded pics! Posting these made me realize that she really is moving along. Beating the frost could be just in time for a nice harvest and X-mas gifts for the good boys and girls.

 

[az2000]

If that's grown in MG Potting Mix, they look great.

 

[OlderNOTwiser]

I usually have a bag or two of it around (MG) as I do up about 20 pots of flowers on my deck and front entry. So, when I stumbled across the lone seed I found somewhere in the past there was no thought at all about what I was planting in. I let her grow with just water for about six weeks or so until I realized it was female and started getting more serious about things.

 

[Tersky]

ah ok gotcha. I was confused but now it makes sense. Thanks!

 

[SoOrbudgal]

You are doing real good there Older gonna have to change the name cause you are getting wiser! Your plant looks healthy and very green. The word I've heard about old Miracle Grow soil was from many old time outdoor gurilla growers. I used MG in the past but over the years learned about making my own soil mix and not using high N nute mixed into soil from a bag.
Sure is OK for flower pots and such but i'd never start a weed seed in it anymore. My 2cents.

 

[az2000]

OlderNOTwiser, you might try mixing the MG flagship "Potting Mix" product (which I think you're using, it's 0.21-011-011, something like that) with the MG Organic Choice potting mix (0.10-0.05-0.05). That would tone it own a little, and some of the nutrients would be more organically-available (like an amended soil). I do see some burnt tips which is probably from the stronger, time-release nature of the potting mix you're using. Compared to the entire plant, it's *nothing*. But, if you wanted to fine tune it a little, I'd tone it down a little using the OC potting mix. (Be aware, they have an Organic Choice potting soil too. It's different.).

I personally like a mix of synthetic and organic sources of nutrients. The organics will feed the soil microbes and be more "on demand" (participating with the roots that exude carbs to stimulate the microbes to supply nutrients). But, I like to supply some more-instantly available nutrients too. That's how I feed my light soil. A balance of both. I'm thinking mixing the two potting mixes might dial in what you're doing with just one potting mix. (But, it's turning out so well, maybe it's not worth trying to improve upon it.).

I'll be interested to hear what you think of the harvest/smoke/taste. I've grown one plant from veg to harvest using MG Tomato fertilizer (in my light soil). It seemed as good as anything else I smoked. I think some of the criticism of MG has to do with new growers, making new grower mistakes (drying/curing), feeding too much sugar at the end, etc. Wrecking the taste somehow that way. All I know is: the one plant I grew start to finish with MG Tomato tasted better than plants I grew using GH Flora 3-part in soilless. Those were harsh compared to the MG grown plant. (But, that could have been my early drying/curing those GH grown plants too. I don't know.).

I'm looking forward to hearing how you like the finished product. I bet you won't have any complaints. You should probably start looking at the drying and curing process. The idea is to bring the plant's moisture down quickly, but evenly. I try to get it down to around 72% when enclosed in a Sterlite bin. And then walk that down more carefully to 65%. Then even more carefully down to 62%, which I vacuum seal in mason jars. (I've got stuff curing for 5 years, vacuumed sealed.). It all depends on your climate. I'm in a dry/arid climate. I can't do the typical "hang in a closet for a week." The buds would be crispy in 2-3 days, while the core is still wet. I have to hang for a day or two, then cut the buds off into Sterlite bins which I manipulate the lid to control how fast they dry. You'll need some Caliber IV hygrometers. You can jar or bin some buds and see what the humidity is after they're enclosed for an hour. That gives you an idea of how fast or slow to continue drying. (If you're in a humid environment, you may need a dehumidifier. I should probably run a humidifier in my environment. That would probably be better than fumbling with plastic bins the way I do.).

 

[az2000]

I was probably two weeks late switching to flower nutes as I clearly didn't realize she was in flowering already. When I switched I stopped the nitrogen heavy bottle and switched to TigerBloom and now I realize the schedule ... has all three bottles being used until week 12 or so. I thought I was losing fan leaves too quickly and started to introduce the N bottle back in but only at 1/4 strength. Planning to do so for the next few cycles and then retire

Think of it this way: The actual NPK label is % of strength. Tigerbloom is 2-8-4. Your primary nutrients are 14% of the total weight. You could compare that to a 16-16-16 product (48% weight is primary nutrients) and know if the price per pound is worth it.That could be useful if you were a farmer, with 200 acres to fertilize. You could quickly identify how much you pay per lb of primary nutrients. The difference could be significant.

But, there's a ratio implied in that NPK label too. 1 part nitrogen, 4 parts phosphros, 2 parts potassium. If you reduce NPK labels to a ratio like that, it's easier to compare the suitability of a product for the plant's needs.

Ratio 1-4-2 is essentially bloom booster proportions. (To me, 1-3-2 is bloom booster. So, 1-4-2 is definitely up there). The implication is: N is reduced subtantially. At your stage of growth, I typically have a ratio 1-1.5-1.8. I finish around 1-2-1.8. That's fairly high N compared to 1-4-2 -- even earlier in flower).

I don't cut N as much as most people seem to do. I like to keep my plants greener, healthier at the end of flower. But, if you wanted to cut N, using TB by itself is way too little N. I could see hitting a plant once with it as a "booster" (I'm still not convinced "boosters" do anything.). But, as a continual feed, that's way too little N.

If you used the 3 bottles as intended, that would create an NPK ratio 1-2.08-1.41 (assuming you're in Wk 9. After that the ratios go very high P&K. Not something I would do. But, it must work or they wouldn't sell so many bottles.).

Personally, I don't like these multi-bottle franchised schedules because they obscure these ratios. Everyone tells a new grower "learn to read your plant." But, how do you do that when you're thinking in terms of 2ml of the drunk giraffe, and 5ml of the horny donkey? What you need to know is the *ratio* that results from that. Plus, what if you wanted to use other nutrients? How would you translate the cartoon labels to some other product? If you're feeding 1.23-1-1.24 in veg (as you would be following the "Trio" schedule), and having good results, you might want to recreate that ratio using other, less proprietary products. Those franchised feeding programs "fat, dumb, happy" and locked into their product (because nobody else sells a bottle of horny donky and drunk giraffe).

Sorry to go on a rant. But, I see this so often. People think "oh, I need bloom nutes." They don't. Or, they overdo it with a ratio that's too extreme. If you think in terms of ratios, you can quickly know if you're in the right range.

Different topic: You might try growing a plant in a ratio 1-1-1 all the way from veg to harvest. That would be a product like Grow More - Sea Grow (16-16-16), or Jack's Classic All Purpose (20-20-20). Or, even MiracleGro Tomato (18-18-21, a ratio 1-1-1.2. Essentially 1-1-1). There are many growers who grow this way as a *practice*. I've done it. I honestly don't think raising P & K in flower (other than a visual effect) does much. But, my point is: do it yourself. Grow one in Organic Choice potting mix (or something similar) and use a 1-1-1 ratio fertilizer all the way through. How can you know boosting P&K (reducing N) does *anything* if you haven't grown a balanced ratio all the way through? (I.e., something to compare to.).

 

[Farmall]

I did this the first grow... THAT’S why I switched to super soil....and I don’t see ever going back. My basil...WOW...my tomatoes, WOW. my brain ....free to think about other shit. 🤓. And the cost is likely the same

 

[SoOrbudgal]

Right on Farmall

 

[Rwise]

I have not tried their new products, but the old stuff left a bad taste in the buds that did not flush out. Their "organic" stuff may be good!

 

[Rwise]

I too make my own organic soil, thats how I was raised,,, take blow sand and make soil with scrapes, BS, leaves etc..
My fav fertilizer for the gorilla grows was a dead cow,,,,

 

[OlderNOTwiser]

OK! I'll bite...dead freakin' cow?

 

[SoOrbudgal]

LOL man now that is funky shit :silly:

 

[az2000]

Rwise, there are definitely mixed reports out there. A few years ago I grew a plant in my light airy soil feeding MG Tomato (18-18-21) from veg to harvest. I didn't notice any taste problems. It seemed as good as anything else I've grown. Better than the soilless GH Hydro Flora 3-part (which seemed to me to make harsh taste. Yet, others love what they produce with GH 3-part.). BillyKidd knows someone who grows in the flagship MG "Potting Mix" product (the same stuff the OP is growing in; the same stuff I've always heard was problematic.). He said it seemed good. It inpsired him to grow a couple plants in it to see for himself. I'm eager to hear how that turns out.

I'm growing two right now in Kellogg cactus potting mix, feeding MG All-Purpose (24-8-16) and fish emulsion (5-1-1) to boost N even higher (the cactus mix is very deficient in N). They've been under 12/12 lighting for 8 days, and putting out dank odor. This one was difficult to grow because it took me a couple weeks to sort out the low-N. It still has a few weeks to go. It may fall apart, I don't know. But, so far it seems like a great way to grow. (I'm feeding 136ppm All-Purpose, 79ppm Fish emulsion, 36ppm epsom salt. I wanted to use MG fertilizer by itself. But, I couldn't make that happen even with its 3-1-2 NPK ratio. I had to raise N higher. It would benefit from higher K too, but I want to keep it relatively simple, hardware-store sourced. I didn't even want to use epsom salt. But, that's easily sourced too. I didn't want to be so precise mixing things, require a new grower to have a ppm pen. But, I don't think I could make it grow otherwise. It seems to have a narrow window or being "dialed in." I think that has to do with the cactus mix being so void of nutrients a plant could draw upon and dial itself in.).

I'm going to do this again using MG Performance Organics fertilizer. I saw another thread where someone's using it. That got me to thinking about it's ratio (3.67-1-2.67). That seems like it would be perfect for the Kellogg cactus potting mix. My last feeding was ratio 3.67-1-1.67. As I said, I feel my grow needs more K. So, that out-of-the-box ratio would be good. Plus, being more organic-base would be good.

I really think much MG sentiment is due to new-grower problems. My perception is that Fox Farm is garbage because so many new growers have trouble with it. But, there's lots of people who grow with it and happy with it. Likewise, there's lots of people who grow with MG. You tend to not see them active on forums due to the reflexive hate, urban legends about "smoking fireworks, etc."

Clearly people have different experiences, just like with other products. I think MG sentiment more easily tilts toward hate due to anti-Scotts sentiment, "big agra," etc. It's an easier target to blame for new grower problems (which would be dismissed with other products as "you just need to learn how to use it.").

But, I've only grown one plant using MG fertilizer. I'm eager to hear how the OP likes his harvest (and billykidd likes his). I feel bad for the OP, everyone making him feel like he shouldn't like his harvest (like he shouldn't look forward to it). That's messed up. I'm hoping it turns out very well. I see no reason that it wouldn't. Someone else grows in that same potting mix on a continuing basis. Billykidd said the resulting smoke seems good to him. So, I'd encourage the OP to expect good things.

 

[BillyKidd]

I've got a bag seed I'm growing in MG. It seems to be doing fine going into my 6th week of flower, but I did notice a little bit of nute burn on the tips of some leaves, but otherwise, buds are really frosty, and has a pretty decent smell to the plant.
I'm thinking the nute burn is caused by some time-released nute opening up now.
Don't get me wrong, MG is not my first choice for soil, but I ran out of my buildasoil mix, so in a pinch went with what was on hand.
My friend he's been growing in MG for a couple of years now, since he can't get Black Gold at his location any longer, so I figured what tha hell, give it a try.
I've smoked some of his MG grow stuff, and it seemed fine to me. No bad taste or anything, and the effect was, well, you won't hear me complaining. It was still pretty potent.