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    Emmerson effect

    Good morning all. I was at my local grow shop yesterday and was talking to someone about the emmerson effect. This was my first time hearing about it. It has to do with the wavelength of the light, (750nm and above). Supposedly makes a drastic increase in yeilds. Has anyone experimented with supplemental lighting and the emmerson effect before? I found some light bars online for around 100 bucks a piece. Very curious if this would be worth the investment?

    #2
    The Chilled logic Puck v2- comes with the far red diodes.
    I have not experimented, but running their puck which has it- nothing to compare to!

    They also offer this: https://www.rapidled.com/far-red-initiator-puck/
    It's all bullshit - until you smoke it!

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      #3
      I use this method in my grow. I used MH to veg and first 2 weeks of bloom. After that it’s HPS with red T5 tubes to supplement. The reds really increases the bud size. The last 2 weeks of flower I switch the red t5 bulbs out for UV ones. This increases THC production.
      4x4 600w HID empty for summer
      3x3 400w HID with Bruce Banner and Skywalker Kush
      2x2 65w Quantum Board LED with 4 mother strains
      running all simultaneously for a perpetual harvests.
      https://forum.growweedeasy.com/forum...hash-adventure

      Comment


      #4
      The emerson effect found by emerson in 1957 was about the discovery of distinct photosystems and not with an enhancement to photosynthesis. Although photosynthesis increases, this is only with respect to the parameters with which he was comparing them too. And is not at all applicable to typical conditions. He was merely able to identify there were multiple photosystems which co-operate together as shown by the increased quantum yield when used together compared to on their own.

      Photosystem I (P700) which exhibits this enhancement effect is very inefficient. The system absorbs wavelengths between 680-730. Which at 710nm, quantum efficiency is typically around 10% of that of light used by photosystem II (P680) at 680nm. And at 720nm around 1% efficiency. This decrease in efficiency is called the red drop effect, which was also discovered by emerson. So even if there were such an enhancement. This alone would prevent any realistic benefit.

      You may be thinking, if photosystem I is so poorly utilized. Why is it even used by plants ?. Well it is... Just not directly through these wavelengths. PSI and PSII work together using light of 680nm or greater. Through the Z scheme, the energy from light is passed through electron transport systems between photosystems where they work together to produce the final product of photosynthesis.

      For those that are interested. Plants use energy from light, to power the light dependant reactions. During the light dependant reactions, water molecules (h20) are split, producing electrons, hydrogen ions and oxygen (o2) as a byproduct. Electrons and hydrogen ions are used to manufacture intermediates, ATP and NADPH. The intermediates from the light dependant reactions are used to power the chemical stages of the light independant reactions. Or commonly called the calvin cycle. ATP and NADPH power the carbon fixation (Co2) to create the ultimate product of photosynthesis, carbohydrates.

      Now the other end of the far red sword is with its use as supplimental lighting. But there are issues with why and how they are used. As i had previously mentioned, the use of far red light above 680nm, is highly inefficient. Due to the red drop effect. So its use for photosynthesis and yield increase is pointless. There is however a benefit of using far red light (730nm and higher) for phytochrome manipulation where PFR proteins are converted to PR more quickly. What this does is allow cultivators to be able to use less dark cycle and more light cycle compared to traditional cycles, without affecting the photoperiodic effect. Meaning instead of having to use 12/12, one can use 13.5/10.5 or even as much as 14/10. With the same flowering effect as 12/12. Allowing more light amd potential yield. But whats important to understand is that, in order to benefit from this accelerated phytochrome conversion. The far red lighting must be used imediately after the light cycle, while the lights are off. With a duration of about 5 minutes. So it makes no sense to include far red lighting as part of the main light source during the light cycle.
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      • Toker1
        Toker1 commented
        Editing a comment
        So it seems like using 660 nm in combination with 700 nm is better than just using 660 nm alone ( I am currently supplementing 660 nm only). And far red has the ability to aid the nightly conversation that would typically happen over a longer period of time (if far red was not available). Basically both together increases the rate, allowing the conversion to happen faster and more efficiently. Giving the ability to handle longer days with out creating reveg or Hermies when used properly.
        But 660 nm does enhance photosynthesis when used alone, just not as efficiently as having it combine with 700 nm.
        Is that correct?

      #5
      Wow. Thank you so much for taking the time to explain things so well. That is very interesting. So I guess I should probably save myself the cash and invest in something more efficient for supplemental lighting.

      Comment


        #6
        Originally posted by Toker1 View Post
        So it seems like using 660 nm in combination with 700 nm is better than just using 660 nm alone ( I am currently supplementing 660 nm only). And far red has the ability to aid the nightly conversation that would typically happen over a longer period of time (if far red was not available). Basically both together increases the rate, allowing the conversion to happen faster and more efficiently. Giving the ability to handle longer days with out creating reveg or Hermies when used properly. But 660 nm does enhance photosynthesis when used alone, just not as efficiently as having it combine with 700 nm. Is that correct?
        The process of photosynthesis is dependent on two photosystems. Where photosystem II (oxidation) requires photons of 680nm or less and photosystem I (NADPH+ reduction) with 700nm or less. Emerson first noticed when working on the quantum yield tests of photosynthetic organisms, that the efficiency declined at wavelengths above 680nm. Which was later called the red drop. At the time this was confusing with current understanding on photobiology as quantum yield should be linear up to 700nm. Later on with his experiemnts, he found that this red drop deficiency could be prevented (up to 700nm) by supplimenting with wavelengths below 680nm. This was the main driver for the discoveries in multiple photosystems and the current theory on photosynthesis (Z scheme).

        The reasons for the red drop and enhancement effect were later discovered by others, which showed that when monochromatic testing of quantum yield above 680nm were used, this energy was insufficient to drive both photosystems. This is because of the energy barrier difference of P700 to P680. And so quantum efficiency declined as a result of the imbalance of photosystems.

        Again this is not something that is enhanced if far red supplimentation is used. Because this phenomenon is conditional only to the parameters with which was used in these experiments. And so the main outcome of the expirments was not a photosynthetic enhancement property (because there is none), but merely the research that lead to the discovery of multiple photosystems. The enhancement of photosynthesis seen by emerson only occurs because of the monochromatic spectrum used. In that far red at 680nm-700nm would only activate one photosystem (PSI), but not both. And so photosystem II would act as a bottlekneck for photosystem I. Where as wavelengths below 680nm drive both PSI and PSII equally.

        Under normal conditions with practically all typical grow light sources, both photosystems are driven equally and so no enhancement is to be had. Wavelengths that preferentially activate photosystem I and cause the red drop effect is between 680-700nm. Beyond 700nm, there is very little energy to be able to drive photosystem I and beyond 730 it is ineffective. Again because of this energy barrier difference. Its a bit of a laugh really for those manufacturers that advertise the emerson enhancement effect but yet their products fall outside the 680-700nm range to support their own hypothesis (looking at you rapidled).

        With respect to your other question. Yes far red encourages the conversion of phytochrome protiens more quickly. But remember, the benefit of this can only be seen when the cultivator takes advantage by increasing the light cycle and uses this spectrum at the beginning of the dark cycle only (not during the light cycle). On its own without light cycle changes, it has no effect.
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        The Light Cycle Debate
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        How To Compare Grow Lights
        To Defoliate Or Not To Defoliate
        Having A Light Source Too Close

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          #7
          The Doctor is in, and the confusion is out.

          Comment


            #8
            Ok. Got it. So for the Emerson effect...If I left a 730nm red light on 15 min after lights out, then I can increase my lights on time by 2 hrs. Meaning 14 on and 10 off. The extra light hours is what leads to increased yields.
            4x4 600w HID empty for summer
            3x3 400w HID with Bruce Banner and Skywalker Kush
            2x2 65w Quantum Board LED with 4 mother strains
            running all simultaneously for a perpetual harvests.
            https://forum.growweedeasy.com/forum...hash-adventure

            Comment


            • Weed Pharma
              Weed Pharma commented
              Editing a comment
              DrPhoton said: "light quantity is more important than light quality" -
              This is often overlooked by many growers, due to the way lights are marketed to them.

            • Toker1
              Toker1 commented
              Editing a comment
              Got ya. Yeah, from an efficiency standpoint that makes sense. Although this is a 24w bulb I am discussing here. Seems negligible when there is a 400w HPS work horse carrying most of the load. I’ll give the standard t5 bulb a try next grow and see if I notice any difference.
              Thanks DrPhoton! Always a pleasure speaking with you here.

            • DrPhoton
              DrPhoton commented
              Editing a comment
              Yes you too my man.

            #9
            I found this. Not sure if it's any good but the price is right...

            Comment


            • Toker1
              Toker1 commented
              Editing a comment
              Yes, i saw that too. Only, that’s just for a diode. It’s a component to a DIY LED light. You still need a frame and power drive to make it work I believe.

            • SirSmksAlot
              SirSmksAlot commented
              Editing a comment
              Ahh. I'm not at all familiar with LED's at all

            • Toker1
              Toker1 commented
              Editing a comment
              No worries. The diode is what emits the light. It needs to be fixed to a frame and to be powered though.

            #10
            For purposes of experimentation, wouldn't a good old fashioned incandescent bulb suffice? They throw a ton of IR.

            From a personal perspective, I'm seeking quality over quantity, so my next lighting investment will probably be at the other end of the light spectrum. Resin / UVB correlation seems intriguing.
            Space 1: 3ft x 3ft T-Tek tent
            400W HPS Mag Ballast
            GH Floro - DWC
            Current grow - Humboldt Fem Green Crck from seed
            - TGA GSC x Space Dude clones

            Space 2: 6ft x 6ft x 8ft room
            IponicZone 400/600/1000W dimmable HPS E-Ballast
            Supplemented with California Lightworks Solar System 275 with spectrum control
            GH Maxi Series-DWC
            Current grow - Humboldt Fem Blue Dream from seed
            - Humboldt Fem Blue Dream Clones
            - TGA GSC x Space Dude from reg seed in dirt, G.O. Box nutes

            Comment


            • Toker1
              Toker1 commented
              Editing a comment
              So I believe what DrPhoton is telling us is that the amounts of far red vs red are what trigger the response. The reason incandescent lighting is not a good choice is because you have little to no control over that factor.
              Last edited by Toker1; 05-27-2019, 01:47 PM.

            • DrPhoton
              DrPhoton commented
              Editing a comment
              There cannot be any wavelengths below 720nm which can activate Pr protiens. Only wavelengths between 730nm-800nm can be used in order to convert Pfr to Pr.

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