First grow Special kush #1 / white widow grow journal

[IslandColas]

I'll see what I can come up with in terms of references for you.

Seeds beat clones because of vigor and root development.

Germination rates are generally very high 90%+. In fact, the need to have all stalks produce further supports seeds, because there is no mother plant that isn't going to flower.

If you buy clones pre-rooted you still aren't going to beat seeds. I actually ran a micro experiment on that in my last grow. The clone ended up producing only 12g because she couldn't possibly keep up with the vigor of the seedlings and got shaded out.

Common seed related problems that you mention are not a serious issue for commercial growers working with trusted seedbanks and stable genetics.

Clones used to be really important because of sexing as well. Feminized seeds have largely destroyed this advantage that clones once held. Growers are now confident in running seeds in large grows without sexing the plants.

I can somewhat see what you mean. I already know you’re a seed pusher so there’s some biases lol and I know I will never get you to see my point (I still love you) but I still stand with clones for such a small operation. If he was given a Com license that was governed by canopy I’d be right there with you! Agreed to Disagree

[IslandColas]

I have 37acees so the plan is once I get to that level that will be outside and that would be soil . Not to say that an indoor grow isn’t still going to take place .

Honestly, if you’re allowed to grow the 72 outdoor, I’d veg indoors and then flower outdoor. I’m not sure about your light cycle year round. But here in Hawaii we run 12-14hr days so you can flower anytime of year. Just throw it outside and it starts the flower cycle

[DrPhoton]

Most commercial facilities use clones, they use clones because they are stable phenotypes which are predictable. But also because they are faster to finish with, cutting propagation time down. They often have a room where they do strain research to find the best strains and the best phenotypes of those strains. I do not know of one commercial facility that primarily does seeds. Aurora have started with seed propagation using their own solutions to improve reliability and speed, however they still mainly clone. And i have had to research many of the top facilities for my current position. Some of these commercial facilities should be looked at for referencing.

Grewnhouse:
Aphria, elite.

Indoor:
Neta, aurora, canntrust, alpinstash, advanced grow labs, creekside cannabis, medmen (multi-tier verticle grow), tweed, the grove, silver state relief.

Many of these facilities use differerent fertigation systems, but typically the large scale facilities have massive RO systems that feed into dosing machines that inject nutrients into the solution. Most actually use some recipe of inert mediums, typically with coco coir as the base and use drain to waste drip systems.

Lighting is a whole lot more, which i could go all day on. But lets not ^.^

[Obi-Wan]

When comparing seed propagation in the same window as cutting a clone the difference ce is negligible. In other words you can cut a clone and it will root in the same time that it takes to germinate a seed and reach the same stage of growth. The vigor that is produced be seeds far outways any benigiys to cloning without a doubt. This isn’tt conjecture, science or preference, but a solid year of growing clones. Seeds give better product bottom line, and that is worth the expense of extensive testing. I have a friend that grows as a caregivegiverband he starts from seed, then he runs a second round from clone....his first harvest is always more vorgorous in terms of yield and quality....genetically a clone may be the same but that does not mean it will produce the same terpine profile or the profile....testing will always be different from one plant to another.

[DrPhoton]

Im only arguing about propagation/growing times.

#1
"It can take a little bit more time, again, because you have to wait for the seed to germinate, etc"

#1
"Because you are starting with a plant, and you don’t have to wait for the seed to germinate, you are saving a little bit of time."

#2 Royale Queen Seeds actually trying to argue against clones, because well they are a seed bank.

"The only tangible benefit of using the cloning method for a new grower is that the plant is already farther along in development than a seed would be, and you can hope for an actual yield sooner. If time is not an issue, this may not matter to you at all. It usually only shortens the entire growing cycle by about a month."

#3
"Another reason clones can be better is that if you are going to be growing repeatedly, using clones puts you on the fast-track to harvest, because you are starting out with a plant that is further along than a seedling, cutting about a month or more off the start to finish of your grow cycle."

#4
"As far as "catching up from seed"...I'm not sure that will ever happen. A seed is simply younger than the clone and will always be "x" amount of days younger than the clone is.

The timeframe is only one advantage of cloning. "

There is staggering evidence that cloning is faster, which theory supports. I have managed to clone a cutting with 5-6 nodes, not easy but once rooted, this is the stage of growth of a 3-4 week old seedling.

There are some interesting points that would be good to discuss. Like root structure. Although seeds develop large taproot systems, this is only really beneficial in outdoor environments where more srructural support is beneficial. The fiboruous roots of cuttings is more than satisfactory for indoor/greenhouse cultivation in hydroponics.

There is also the maturity aspect i mentioned earlier about clone leaves, but there is also sexual maturity. Allowing flowering to develop sooner and quicker with clones due to sexual maturity being more advanced. In the 4th cite, there is also mention of possible quality benefits of flowers due to this sexual maturity, but i dont think there is any evidence for that, just conjecture.

So to me personally and likely the opinion of most large scale commercial farms, clones are faster.

[IslandColas]

DrPhoton Campesino

The proof is in the pudding. No small scale experiment nor personal opinion can change the fact that when marijuana is commercially cultivated the farmers with millions of dollars on the line will choose the most effective and proven method. I’m not in the slightest telling anyone clones are the best way to go EVERY TIME. Seeds have their place and the genetic work being done on them is leaps and bounds ahead of 10 years ago. You’re right that the advantage gap is being closed. But when I get talking money, I talk proven, scientific, hard number, language. Clones provide a better business model for a commercial farmer to start from.

In relation to labor, I still say go with a nursery that does all the “babying” for you and get closer to the money side. FLOWER

But in conjunction with what you said Camp, if the nursery provided propagated seeds just entering full veg, with the same level of genetic testing and quality control as they can achieve through clones, I would hands down buy the taprooted plants. And in turn STILL be saving the time and infrastructure required for propagation!)

[DankwingDuck]

Just to take a moment to update with some photos will do full update later tonight but wanted to show off my babies .

[Obi-Wan]

A clone cut fresh will take 6-10 days to root. A seed germinated will take 6-10 days to pop from the soil. From this point in the seed grows faster than the clone in my “personal” experience, again this isn’t second hand or from a book it is personal experience. The idea idea that clones are faster fails to account for rooting time. The only advantage to running clones is that you don’t have to pay for a seed, that is it, period!!

[DankwingDuck]

I will be cutting clones from these.

[DankwingDuck]

Maybe tonight maybe in a week . We will see how motivated I feel afte changing the water .

[LosTweed]

Wow.. that looks like my goal. When do you switch to flower?

[DankwingDuck]

Tomorrow is the plan have to build my scrog first tho . So maybe in a few days . We will see . I have a lot going on this week with the holiday and family and other things . But very very soon .

Thank you for you appreciation

[IslandColas]

DrPhoton your assumption that clones propegate faster is based on nothing but congecture and grower myth, I would have expected that you of all people would demand physical evidence to support your conclusion. Commercial use of clones comes down to nothing more than cost. The expectation that a clone will perform as it’s mother is a thin argument as well, it assumes that the grower can maintain a mother plant in good health for the duration of the cutting period each and every time. Genetic drift can occur when the mother plant is not 100%. Maintaining a mother plant that can in fact pass on 100% of her genetic traits is a vastly under appreciated skill in the growing community, and not one that should be taken for granted. A commercial grower that runs clones over seed does so at the risk of being penny wise and pound foolish.

No commercial grower would ever trust questionable clones, nor have the “lack of experience” to grow them properly. Seedlings are just as fragile IMO. If all commercial growers using clones were all “penny wise and pound foolish” their would be someone “smart enough” (in your opinion) to grow from seed and blow them all out of the water... I don’t see your proof?

Danger seems to be the only other businessman on the forums...

[DankwingDuck]

I think I’m going to do a side by side soon . I have some more of these kush seeds . We will see if I can fit it in

[KingKush]

DrPhoton
Why you stop posting? All the cool kids are doing it these days

[DrPhoton]

Security and personal reasons. I do not get a kick out of posting my grows. I find more interest elsewhere. Im also too busy.

[KingKush]

IslandColas DrPhoton Campesino Obi-Wan

Woah how did I miss this? Great stuff fellas: intelligent debate instead of frivolous arguments. It's been a pleasure to read all of your thoughts. All I have to offer is a growers anecdotal experience. I grow plants from seed and from clone, and I can tell you that seedlings grow more robust by up to 50%more. But I can also tell you that no seeds are the same, so growing clones provides the benefit of "the same product, exactly" if I have a field of clones, everything is IDENTICAL. Growing seeds is a crap shoot, even from respected breeders. As far as quality and yield, that's just grower talent.
This Pre98 Bubba Kush that I started with and still have is a decade into cloning. Same with my Trainwreck.

Seeds are not as self sustaining as clones. Clones you can totally maintain a perpetual grow easily. Growing from seed every plant limits you to either purchasing, or "making" your own, which is more difficult than cloning.

Those are my only thoughts about why I choose and prefer cloning to maintain my barn. It's more about finding killer strains and preserving them, with limited resources available, so cloning works just fine for this grower.

Cheers all, Growers Love

[IslandColas]

I respectfully apologize for the aggressive response guys. I respect all of your opinions fellas. Grateful to be part of such a well rounded community

[DrPhoton]

Im keen for a thread campo

[DankwingDuck]

Please tag me ty

[Chefbjy]

I'll take a tag on that too Campesino I've been finding this conversation very intriguing. You all have educated answers and personal opinions, that I admire. 😃

[DankwingDuck]

Ok so I changed the water on all the girls . Ph and ppm all the same nothing have changed . Put them under a scrog at about 20 inches or so off the floor. This is only temporary because I am pretty sure I’m moveong sk1.1 to a 20 gallon res this week and putting her in her own scrog and then under an 1150watt hps to bloom . The other 20 will stay under this scrog and veg for now under these new 1200watt leds 😜😁. Tell me what y’all think . I’ll have to make some updates to my grow specs listed but I think these will really get things popping .

[LosTweed]

Wow....that is way more effective than my “Kush Push” I showed the masses here recently. Golfclap

[LosTweed]

Mine is mobile still though. Pick it up and run..though i just jilted my back yesterday moving it 6 yards.

[DankwingDuck]

The scrog is only temp . It will get redone so I can remove the lid with it and change the water . I’m doing the one scrog for the one big plant . It just to get them started and fill in some more .

[DankwingDuck]

Ok guys I know I have been mia for a few weeks and I will be doing an update very soon I have been super busy trying to get a grow going in Florida and expanding my grow in Michigan and starting a 2nd grow in Michigan . So apologies for the brief hiatus but I will be posting again soon and I dropped my seeds for the dark harvest challenge.

While you you wait for me to get in gear here is a little of what I have been doing . New plants new equipment and even a grow I bought a friend out of and took over . A lot of things changing and some exciting photos.

[DankwingDuck]

[DankwingDuck]

I bought the grow from a friend who was in a financial situation making us partners with a 70/30split in my favor . Had to change a few things but all is going great . I know it is kinda cheating but it helped a friend and gave me he foundation to move forward . All the hydro pots are the stuff I had already been working on and everything in coco is stuff I bought from my friend . There is a lot more photos but this is what I had on my phone . Will post photos of the new grow house soon . Just wanted to give a quick update since it had been awhile .

[Chefbjy]

Looking great!! Glad to hear things are well. Have a great week.

[DankwingDuck]

Root ball on sk1.1

[DankwingDuck]

Quit photo update

ppms 1000 give or take 20
ph 5.6-5.8

needs a major defoliation asap but looking good no issues roots look great

I have to go out of town again tomorrow so I hope I can get them all done before then I was really wanting to defol myself but if I end up running out of time I’ll have my partner do it for me . Least he can do lol living rent free in the grow house .

It is is what it is tho if they don’t get a defoliation in the next few days I’m just going to leave it be . It almost the end of week 2 of flower and I don’t wanna be doing any training or defoliation after this week .