CANNABIS MEDICINE: The biphasic effect

[alltatup]

This is what I learned over the past couple of weeks of experimenting with my tinctures: it's not the same as smoking/vaping!!! DUH. I mean, I knew this, but I don't think I really understood the differences in:

• methods of delivery and
• duration/intensity of the high. Now I do.

Here's what I have learned:

• "Cannabis is NOT ALLOPATHIC, BUT BIPHASIC, meaning the effect of increasing doses is not a linear progression.
• A small dose of THC will make a patient feel euphoric and hungry, but a large dose will inversely make the same patient feel anxious and not hungry.
• This is opposite to allopathic medicines in general (i.e., over the counter, prescribed), where a single dose has a measured effect, and ten doses would have ten times the same measured effect.
• Even long-time patients with a high tolerance to smoking, can be overwhelmed by their medication when trying sub-lingual or swallowing tincture/edible for the first time. Watch dosing carefully, to discover how much is too much, and how much is perfect."

I tried a large dose of tincture over the weekend and got so high, it was almost too high for me. Never thought I'd say that, but that was before tinctures. I leaned into it and let my mind trip out. I napped a bit, too. It was a mild but definitely psychadelic experience.

I've been dosing daily with either the 8-ball or the higher-CBD tincture I made (still has hella THC in it, too), and I find that my joints definitely feel better, and there's less pain in my legs. As I've noted elsewhere, on a half-dropper dose, I get a very nice high that lasts 2 hours (best to have that over before I go to work), with relaxation and pain relief the rest of the day. I have been taking a dose in the afternoon as well, and I don't get anywhere near as high in the pm as I do early in the am.

I'm sure that when I harvest this current CBD grow I'm on, I can do a tincture that will help more with pain. This would be a lower-THC tincture, so without the initial 2-hour high. I also want to make one with more THC to get the buzz and all the CBD benefits. I will make a tincture for every occasion...

[Aloner]

You forgot to say how large the large dose was! Also, thanks for this post... I'm assembling the necessary ingredients as we speak so this good info for me to keep in mind!

One of the great things about weed is when you hit that "too much" point -- you just gotta remind yourself that it's basically impossible to OD and go with it, like you did.

Also like "Tinctures for all occasions"!

[alltatup]

A good dose for me is 1/2 dropperful from a one ounce tincture bottle: that's what one pull on the dropper gets. That's about 20 drops. I mix the tincture with a little orange juice (you really don't need a lot to cut the burn of the everclear), and I swallow it after it's been under the tongue for a minute. Some folks spit it out so as not to have any of it go through the digestive system.
The big dose was 1.5 droppersful.
Yeah, it's definitely not an OD type feeling, it's just really high, like LOTS of THC.

[DrPhoton]

No offense ATU but i think you are being a little presumptuous, i mean that in the kindess way. First your choice of words does not make sense to me. Allopathy describes a system of medicine and its methods against diseases. This is unrelated to a pharmocological action. Biphasic is a broad term but does not have any direct relevance to medicine. One would assume it would likely refer to electroincs terminology. But alternate phase does not befit your description.
All drugs produce a different pharmacodynamic and pharmacokinetic effect. Liberation, Absorption, Distribution, Metabolism, Excretion. All these things are variables with any source of pharmaceuticals or non pharmaceuticals.

I believe what you experienced is just the differences from the method of delivery. The speed and method of delivery even if the dosages are the same have huge difference. Faster delivery allows higher concentration levels because of less time allowed for excretion. Different method of delivery could allow higher absorption or a chemical conversion process that produces a chemical of higher potency. The variables go on.

pharmacology is nightmare.

[DrPhoton]

What you were referring to is exactly my point, the words chosen threw off your point. I do not feel my information was overtly technical, besides the topic of discussion was about the understanding of cannabis pharmacology. Which is right on point of my information. What i provided would help someone further understand the principles behind pharmacuticals. Which cannabis falls under. Which is what you are after with your research.
With all respect, all good research is peer reviewed. This is how we progress in science to get the best data possible.

[alltatup]

Yes dan, all my publications have been peer reviewed.

Go to Project CBD and look up biphasic effect. All research there is peer rev.

[DrPhoton]

Was talking about yours, not the uncited data. Lets move on.

[DrPhoton]

Here is some information on how plasma level is affected by the non linear behaviour of absorption and clearances differences. Very interesting if your interested in drugs.

[D.A.A.S.69]

Morning Alltatup, that sounds like your on the verge of some greatness with your medicine, I hope so anyway.
Where I live there is way more Old Heads, and all they want to do is smoke joints, I sure wish we had someone with your intelligence around here to show em you can teach an old dog a new trick or two about the magical plant, they would probably not ever smoke another jaybird.

[alltatup]

oldjarhead100 I hope you find that the tincture really helps with leg pain: it sure does help with mine. Now that you have a NOVA, it's not hard to make and make it EXCELLENTLY!!!

[Paracelsus]

Old dog here, looking for new tricks and kicks.
I'm a new member so I am hesitant to just start a thread for each question that pops into my head.
I haven't started my grow, I'm just trying to absorb all the info available here and bounce some ideas around before I commit. Since you and Alltatup are into distillation already I thought I'd ask if any particular strains lend themselves to being used as edibles and are easier to extract THC and other psycho-active compounds from. Please point me in the right direction as my slate is clean.

[D.A.A.S.69]

Morning Paracelsus, I wish i could help you with your question, but I'm an old dog myself an don't nothin about making that good stuff, but I know damn well Alltatup does, She's been making an studying that for a while, she can tell you some good breeds.
Oh yeah, you make a post anytime you want too, that's what this is for, and welcome to GWE.

[Dagmar]

The first time I made Rick Simpson Oil and then tested it, I did take too much and I did get too high. I seriously thought I was over-dosing and the high lasted for about 6 hours. It was awful. But once I got the dosing under control, it very likely saved my life.

Could you share your tincture receipt? I've made tinctures with Everclear that weren't very affective/effective.

[Potted]

I made some rso resently to releave pain from cancer, doseing was my big concern so I experimented that said it worked out well and releaved my pain!
Like all things it’s what u put in quality wise makes a better outcome.
As Alltatup said I don’t think I would want to leave my crib while doing it. Very nice and relaxing!!!

[alltatup]

Absolutely regarding the quality!!! And absolutely about finding the right dose in the privacy of one's own crib!!!!

[Canyon Grower]

I think that everyone is on a journey here, learning is half the fun. I appreciate points of view from anyone who shares them with respect. We dont all have to agree. alltatup
, DrPhoton I thank both of you for your participation in this forum and your expertise in cannabis craft.

[alltatup]

You're welcome: I'm here to share my experience and the knowledge I'm acquiring.

[alltatup]

Dagmar

For my tincture I decarbed all of my very sticky trim and larfy buds in my Nova machine, and there was quite a bit of that. I didn't weigh it, but I crushed it down in the quart jar so it fairly dense. I filled two quart jars around 65% full of the trim. I really tried to mess with the cannabis as little as possible to maintain its integrity. Then I covered the material with Everclear 190 proof until there was just liquid on top, and I think Everclear 190 is the best choice because it contains so little water that there's going to be minimal dissolution of the water-soluble stuff. So just all the good stuff is being infused into the alcohol. Plus I've discovered that just a little orange juice mixed in does away with the burn under the tongue.

I put it in the freezer, taking it out twice a day to shake. I read that some folks keep it in the freezer for only a few hours, some for a few days, some for weeks, etc., but I came to the conclusion that with 190 proof alcohol, it didn't need to be left for weeks and weeks, and I took it out after 8 days and strained through two nut milk bags into a bowl. Then I transferred it into amber tincture bottles; I ran out of bottles, so some is still in a larger jar, all in the freezer.

I take out a 1 oz bottle in the morning and dose myself. I started with 15 drops mixed in a little juice, held under the tongue for a minute. I got a very mild buzz. But now, using it for over a week twice a day at 20 drops give or take, I notice a definite decrease in my pain, and far less stiffness. It's very good medicine. I can't wait to make CBD tincture.

[alltatup]

No juice mixed into tincture! You want to keep the tincture pure. I put the half dropperful in a flat tablespoon I have, and then I add just a touch of orange juice maybe 2parts oj to 1 part tincture. It's easiest to do if you have some big spoon that will lay still while you put in tincture and juice. Then 60 secs under tongue before swallowing.

[Canyon Grower]

alltatup, I will be growing some high CBD varieties this spring and summer. Shall we compare our experiences? Especially with the tincture prep and resulting medical effects. Sounds like we use cannabis for the same reasons- pain/inflamation/insomnia?

[alltatup]

Canyon Grower Yes, wonderful idea!! I'm collecting information from this topic, the ''favorite recipies" topic and the "decarb machine" topic. I'm keeping a journal with all my experiences with the tinctures, along with all the data I compiled on dosing. And there's my "CBD grow" topic. And Potted has also been talking about dosing and medicine.

So, yes, I can't wait to hear about your grow!! When you start, I should be close to harvest (in week 1 of veg right now).

One of my tinctures is: A little Cannatonic, Lithium OG Kush (THC 10-15%, CBD 1-5%), Iced Grapefruit (mostly sativa, but highly medicinal: good for pain, relaxation, anti-depressant), and White Widow (DP original, very good for relaxation and pain): their synergy is fantastic! It has a lot more THC than CBD, but I'm definitely feeling the therapeutic effects of cannabis /as tincture /as medicine.

[oldjarhead100]

Good stuff ATU Good stuff

[Potted]

Just braving a new frontier,u know in 5 or 10 years this shit will b old once it’s really studied and put into practice! Just hope I can hang out long enough to see it!!!!!

[alltatup]

Potted I keep thinking about you going through round 6 of chemo, I'm gritting my teeth for you, man, just come home safe!!!

[alltatup]

Paracelsus I'd say that any strain you like would be good for infusing. If you need pain relief, something indica or something with lots of CBD.

I don't mess with edibles yet because they scare me--too strong, last too long--, but I do love my tinctures.

[alltatup]

Are you saying the little ice crystals absorb the chlorophyl? Interesting...

[Aloner]

Not quite. If you don't freeze your alcohol, there is some H2O in it floating around willy-nilly, just waiting for some chlorophyl to grab. If the alcohol is brought to below freezing, the water is locked up in little ice crystals and can't get its mitts on the chlorophyl, or at least it becomes more difficult.

Caveat: I've never taken a chemistry class so this might be 100% incorrect, it's just my interpretation of what I've read (again, on the internet).

[Sockfilter]

Great Info Aloner, that makes PERFECT sense to me.. Knowledge is Power..

[Cronk]

I'm growing for CBD also. Candida Cd-1 & also a higher strain THC to mix in with it. I haven't smoked on a regular basis for 30 + years and when I do I get freaked out. Then I got some CBD and some THC edibles that I could take as little as 2.5 mg THC and found that the CBD takes care of a massive amount on my anxiety and the THC mixed in really makes me feel at peace and slightly euphoric, really absolutely perfect. focused and on course feeling. Entourage Effect. it's an amazing thing for me.

while I am far from harvest I really look forward to taking up the weed again after so long but being in control of my blended CBD/THC intake.

PS, CBD will also replace my seizure meds. Doc told me to come off them a few years ago but I had a motorcycle and was afraid to be without them. Now bike is gone and I'm coming off the meds and going natural. BTW, high CBD can counteract the anxiety of high THC dosage so if you find yourself too high again and want to come down a little bit, ingest some pure CBD under your tongue or smoke extra high CBD strain

[alltatup]

Cronk I have a bottle of CBD in the fridge, and I never even thought of taking that with the tincture!! Duh: I guess I got too high... I will definitely try taking them together.

[D.A.A.S.69]

Morning Cronk, that's good getting of those horrible meds, next time you smoke some strong thc, weed , just take 1-2 hits till you get used to it, an you want be peeking out the Windows, thinking the law is after you, it just takes a day or two, to get used to the most potent weed out there, I hope your plants are doing ok.

[Cronk]

Thanks, DAAS take my last dose of "meds" on Thursday. thanks for the tip. Plants are doing great.

[alltatup]

SWALLOWING TINCTURE VS NOT SWALLOWING TINCTURE:

I've been reading about why consumed cannabis is so much stronger than vaped or sublingual. Now I understand what happened to me the few times I put cannabis in my stomach: KA BOOM!! The liver converts THC into the metabolite 11-OH-THC, which is much more powerful:

"The levels of 11-OH-THC in your blood after smoking cannabis are only about 5% of THC levels. This is probably not enough to feel any effects from the 11-OH-THC. However, after taking cannabis orally, the average levels of 11-OH-THC vary from 25% of THC to more than 300% of THC levels, depending on which study you look at." http://profofpot.com/11-hydroxy-tetr...tency-edibles/

So this morning, I took some tincture and spit it out after holding under tongue for a good while. This does create an entirely different effect: I'm pleasantly relaxed, mildly stoned but without the intense head high I get when I swallow the tincture. This way, I can deal with the world out there if I need to, which I can't the other way. Swallowing the tincture is for staying home, being introspective, just chillin.

[Paracelsus]

I can testify eating raw Hashish and Opium really gets you way up in the clouds.

[alltatup]

Wow, this is all interesting information: so you CAN get high from raw stuff; never heard that before.

Here's what I've done the last couple of days: I'm taking my high THC tincture at a much lower dose and I'm taking some CBD oil drops afterwards. I ordered some CBD slab from CBDistillery, and I intend to melt that into my tincture. I figure I will only need 10-15 drops per dose, and that the higher amount of CBD will attenuate the effects of the high THC. My life is devoted to science right now, and I'm determined to see if I can make my tincture a little tamer and a little more calming and pain-relieving. I have so much of it that I can keep some aside for the kick-ass high...

[Potted]

I’ve done that eating raw bud I mean,and I loved it. In younger days it was a high experience for me.

[DrPhoton]

Cannabis would still need to be decarboxylated when taken as sublingual or ingestion, without it THC will be inactive. Inhalation is actually the fastest method of delivery to the brain, this is one reason why nicotine in cigarettes is so addictive. IV is next followed by snorting. But the speed of absorption is not directly related to the efficacy of absorption.
Except for IV, drugs have to pass through several semipermeable cell membranes. Passive, Active, and Facilitated are some processes of crossing cell membranes. These are reasons why the bioavailability of drugs are variable depending on the drug itself. Cannabis is best absorbed by the lungs. But there are ways to increase bioavailability higher than inhalation. ATU i would recommend looking into some facilitators for sublingual. I have heard some people have success with certain fat soluble substances such as sunflower oil or grapefruit extracts. But i have not looked into it much. There is also a way to increase the bioavailability of ingestion, i have heard of a company who created a consumable proprietary product that increases the bioavailability of ingestion from 6% to upwards of 85%. Also as you described the first pass absorption of ingestion changes the chemical structure of THC which could have a much different physiological effect. But sublingual bypasses the first pass effect and so does not metabolize into 11-OH-THC. Also because THC is partially a prodrug because of its metabolic transition in the liver, some people do not feel the effects when ingesting on a emtpy stomach. This is because the metbolic process happens too quickly for the effects to take place. Eating fatty based foods would help those with such problems but will delay the onset.
When i was using opiods for pain releif during my dark days of critical health, i read up on pharmacology to increase the beneficial use. For tramadol i exploited its prodrug effect by taking a small dose initially and then a larger dose one hour later. The enzymes at that point would be higher and increase its bioavailability.
For other opiods the same process would not work so i had to find other ways to enhance the effect. I wish i knew more about chemistry. Its such a complex subject but ripe with ways to abuse it.

ATU what type of effect are you searching for with recreational drugs ? Have a read of my article on the cannabinoid system, you might find it interesting.

[DrPhoton]

Cannabis that is dried or cured has some THC that is already freed. This natural decarboxylated process happens as soon as the plant has been harvested. This is accelerated with drying and even more with heat.
So getting some effect from harvested cannabis is possible. But the potency level is fractional compared to properly decarbed cannabis. Cooking even with mild heat and with fatty subtances such as oil or butter, fascilitate absorption. So that in itself is probable cause. But at the end of the day, for absolute efficiency based on the backed up evidence of cannabis chemistry, decarboxylation through chemical process that frees THC from its acidic form is required.

[Paracelsus]

Old school honey slides
place 1 table spoon low grade powdered shake into fry pan (Better Weed Works Better but Isn't necessary)
heat in pan med high until wisps of smoke appear
add 1 Table Spoon Butter and remove from heat
Add Table Spoon Honey
Let cool and eat

[Paracelsus]

I'm out of pot for a bit so I went old school and made Tea with my twigs and stems from my bag street weed. 90 minutes later Rock and Roll