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The No No of nutrients but!

Jayv

Jayv

New member
Did some changes. I put 2 plants up against one another. Gorilla glue #4. One using Fox Farms Nutrients for soil.
The other gg#4 using miracle grow organics. I did try Miracle grow organics, it has every nutrient in it in one formula. Even Cal/Mag plus micro. I was pleasantly surprised. Both plants came out good. But hands down the Miracle grow org surpassed fox farms nutrients. I gained bud size, weight, zero problems that some times come with fertilizing and nutrient deficiency. Over all bigger plant bigger buds after drying a whole once more. Both plants sane size. Same low stress training and controlled in a indoor grow tent. Yes I made the huge no no in fertilizers but I'm happy I tried it. Grown in Coast of Main soil.
 
It would make sense that Miracle gro has been modified to be better for cannabis by now with the legalization in some areas. My father is a stock broker and because of my growing interest he has looked at some of the stocks related to cannabis and Scott's Miracle Gro has been making changes to market to cannabis growers. They have a bad wrap because it used to be horrible for cannabis but I would not be surprised if they made some changes to accommodate the growing market. Interesting! Thanks for doing the testing!
 
Weed Farmer I have used both. No smell other than the organic nutrition I had. Bone meal for instant, which I used for calcium when using fox nutrients. This indoor grow I’m just getting ready for is the Bar Harbor one. Last indoor I used the Stonington never had any smell. I don’t use any filters. I love the soil, it holds moisture but drys nicely. I find the plants drink more. I’ll post pics Tomorrow is cutting day.
 
Thanks, I’ve been hesitant to use it (inside), but will give it a go next years first grow.
It would be interesting to compare. Miracle grow organic -against just Stonington soil.

i suspect The Coast Of Maine will be at an upcoming Maine canna-con and I will find out more about it, hopefully from the creator.
I'm fairly certain an auto would grow to completion without adding anything!
 
You hit the nail on the head Tersky. Their Black Magic soil ain't your Dad's Miracle gro. They acquired General Hydroponics, some California based cannabis dedicated soil and fertilizer companies among others. The CEO's mantra is soil, fertilizers, growing systems, lights, pesticides and hydroponics. This guy's jumped in with both feet and replaced half his board of directors because of it. I'm on board in more ways than one.
 
Tersky said:
It would make sense that Miracle gro has been modified to be better for cannabis by now with the legalization in some areas. My father is a stock broker and because of my growing interest he has looked at some of the stocks related to cannabis and Scott's Miracle Gro has been making changes to market to cannabis growers. They have a bad wrap because it used to be horrible for cannabis but I would not be surprised if they made some changes to accommodate the growing market. Interesting! Thanks for doing the testing!
Click to expand...

I've grown a plant with MiracleGro "Tomato" fertilizer (18-18-21). I've encountered others online who have done it. Right now I'm growing two plants using MG "All Purpose" (24-8-16). MiracleGro works fine. Maybe not all MG products. But, there are products which are suitable for growing cannabis.

There is so much reflexive hate toward MiracleGro.

Part of it has to do with people using the wrong potting mix. The MG potting mix (simply called "MiracleGro Potting Mix") is too hot with slow-release synthetic nutrients. That gives MG a bad name when new growers use it and then ask "why are my plants suffering?" However, the MiracleGro Organic Choice potting mix isn't as hot (and is organic sourced, so it's not a synthetic time-release type of nutrient that "forces feeds" the plant). I've seen people on forums who say they use this for their soil on an ongoing basis. They like it. (They also tend to lay low due to the hate the inspire.). MG Organic Choice potting mix probably needs more perlite. But, all potting mixes do, IMO.

Another problem is that MircleGro confuses the market. There's an Organic Choice "potting mix" (which people use for cannabis, without problems). And, there's a Organic Choice "potting soil" which has a higher level of nutrients. So, you have to qualify terms a lot. (For example, everybody calls balanced NPK ratios like 16-16-16, or 20-20-20 "All Purpose." MiracleGo calls 24-8-16 "All Purpose." They add confusion in ways like this, which would have been easily avoidable.).

Then there's truther-like misinformation about MiracleGro not being safe (heavy metals). But, if you look up other products on state regulatory databases, you find that other products have equally high metal content. (Some metals are lower in some cases, some are higher. Overall, nothing stands out as unusual.).

And then, there's the anti-GMO, anti-Monsanto, anti-"Big Agro" mindset which just hates Scotts for that affiliation. MiracleGro is an easy target because new growers tend to use it (without searching to find out which products are suitable for use). Instead of zeroing in on the MG products that will work, the common refrain is "stay away from MiracleGro, it's poison."

I recently had a grow journal on thcfarmer using Kellogg Cactus potting mix with MiracleGro Tomato fertilizer (later changed to MiracleGro All-Purpose due to the cactus mix being nitrogen-deficient). I abandoned the journal due to the *concerted* hate there. (I feel sorry for new growers who need help and get such biased misinformation. It's not just there either. I've seen it on Trollitup. Even GrowWeedEasy has a couple MiracleGro pages which engage in the meme -- without going full-truther.).

I believe most people who talk **** about MiracleGro have never grown with it. They're just repeating a meme. Something that identifies them as a solid, experienced grower. "We all know MiracleGro isn't suitable for...." It's repeated so much that it must be true, right?

Anyway, it's beneficial to be specific about MG products, which ones work (which are problematic). But, it's hard to do that when the meme is "using nothing MG." (I was literally yelled at on thcfarmer for saying Organic Choice is ok to use, and that people do use it on a continual basis, not problematic. I was told to stop saying that. The hate is really unbelievable.).

Here's my two plants (31 days old) yesterday, grown in Kellogg cactus mix, and currently being fed MiracleGro All-Purpose (24-8-16) & Pennington Alaska Fish Emulsion (5-1-1) to increase nitrogen to about 3.7-1-1.5 (NPK ratio).

I got off to a rough start with them because the cactus mix is like "soilless" (not really soil). I was using MG "Tomato" (18-18-21) and having N-def in the first 2 weeks. I switched to All-Purpose, and fed stronger. Found the "too strong" level (four strong feedings). I mainlined the two plants, and have been feeding lower-strength but higher N. They're doing pretty good now.

They're small because I wanted to just test the cactus potting mix. 1gal containers. I'm going to flip them to 12/12 soon (within a week). I have an idea to improve the cactus mix potting mix to be more like a soil, and support the plant better. The cactus mix is very good in one way: it dried quickly. Almost too quickly. When the plant is grown into the container, it requires watering about every 18 hours. Very sandy, fast-draining, fast-drying potting mix. But, almost void of true "soil." So, I have an idea to improve that. I want to try it again. But, it's growing pretty well with about 1/2 tsp/gal All-Purpose and 1 tsp/gal Fish emulsion. I've never had to grow with this high of NPK ratio (high N). The highest I ever go is 2-1-2. I'm doing 4-1-1.5 with this plant.


day33 - together - 1200x900.JPG
 
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Jayv said:
using miracle grow organics.
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Are you referring to Performance Organics fertilizer? This is confusing because MG has two Organic Choice potting mixes/soils. And, Performance Organics potting mix & potting soil. And then the Performance Organics fertilizer.

The Performance Organics fertilizer looks good. I like the NPK ratio: 3.67-1-2.67. I like that high proportion of K. About 4g/gal should create 235ppm (that's about what I'm creating with MG "All Purpose" and Pennington fish emulsion. Performance Organics doesn't have sulfur or magnesium. Adding a touch of epsom salt (1g/gal) might help. That should be about 60ppm (my epsom salt creates about 100ppm per gram/gal. You have to go by the actual ppms. Add a little and see what it adds, work your way up.).
 
I am using coast of Maine Harbor mix soil, “I love it” I haven’t had root structure this good except in direct outdoor soil, which in my yard is very loamy. Which is freaking awesome, except for the neighbors whom small the freshness of a flowering plant. LOL.
This new grow I just started for my indoor, is coastal Maine soil, 450 watt Led. Organic MG dry frets.
 
I have one grow going in Miracle Grow, and the another growing in a soil mix I purchased from Build A Soil over 3 years ago. I've always had problems with the build a soil about half way through flower and have to add Dyna-Gro Blm-008 Bloom 3-12-6 Plant Food to keep it healthy, but my Miracle Grow planted one is healthy at the same stage. Will be interesting to see how it harvests up.
I don't have much luck with the build a soil in flower, but it does great during the vegging stage.
 
Until I was "learnt" about miracle grow, that is all I used when I use to grow in dirt. Had to adjust the dosage but got the hang and put out some pretty decent bag weed. Have used it in the aeroponic systems, with good luck on cloning and seed starting. May have to try it with a grow, but to many "Experiments" going right now.
 
Jayv said:
Not the soil but the black box organic fertilizers
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I'm growing two test plants in Kellogg Palm & Cactus mix. I wasn't liking it much. But, now that I've got the NPK ratio dialed in, I like it. I was going to do another test using cactus mix mixed with some rich potting mix (like Kellogg Patio Plus, which I use as 22% of my potting mix, the stuff I usually grow in). But, your post got me to thinking about MiracleGro Performance Organic fertilizer (All Purpose plant nutrition, 11-3-8). That's a NPK ratio of 3.67-1-2.67. That really sounds like it would be perfect for the cactus mix.

A few years ago, I grew a plant in my potting mix using MiracleGro Tomato (18-18-21, NKP ratio 1-1-1.2). I fed that from seedling to harvest and it worked fine. I was planning to do the same thing with this cactus potting mix. But, I could tell something wasn't right during the first 3 weeks. I kept raising N, and increasing the strength. I finally arrived at NPK ratio 3.95-1-1.53 at a strength of 230-280ppm. That's working really well. I've never had to feed that much N (proportional to P & K). Normally I'd raise K higher. But, my goal is to use just one hardware-store product. I ended up having to use two (MG All-Purpose 24-8-16 and Pennington Fish Fertilizer 5-1-1 to get the N that high).

Anyway, Performance Organic's high N & K (ratio) sounds interesting. I think I'm going to do another test using Kellogg Cactus potting mix (by itself again), but that Performance Organics fertilizer. I bet it will work well. I would have raised my current test's K using potassium sulfate (0-0-50). That's how I normally grow, mixing things together to get custom NPK ratios. But, like I said, I wanted to keep it simple using only stuff from the hardware store.

Attached is a photo of that plant this morning. 36 days old. I mainlined it once (each plant has two main stems now). I switched to 12/12 last night. You can see some older leaves show overfeeding symptoms (cupped, dark green). That was mostly intentional, testing how MG All-purpose worked. I'm feeding 230ppm now (not counting the water's initial 150ppm). But, the soil had some built up salts from the overfeeding. That's going down (runoff ppms). So, I'll probably have to raise the strength closer to 300ppm. (I was doing 480-725ppm in four feedings, which was way too much. It's bounced back very nicly now that I have the N high enough, and the overall strength low enough.).
 

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BillyKidd said:
I have one grow going in Miracle Grow,
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Which MiracleGro soil are you using? I always like to know specifically what people are using.

I think it's important to be specific because MG has so many products. And, they have confusing names (potting mixes, potting soils). The flagship product (named just MiracleGro Potting Mix) is what I think has given MG such a bad reputation (the reflexive "don't use MG!" opinions). It's kind of strong, and time-released. I don't think it's ideal for growing. The "potting soil" products probably aren't either. There's a Performance Organic potting mix (and potting soil). I don't know about it. The only one I've heard of being good or growing cannabis is the MG Organic Choice potting mix (not the potting soil).

Anyway, I try to be specific about it because I think not doing so contributes to the "broad brush" stigma MG has. There are products that grow well. But, there are also some that don't (the "moisture control" potting mixes come to mind).

I'd also stay away from MG's perlite. They add fertilizer to it too. It has a 0.11-0.11-0.11 NPK label. Maybe that's not a problem because it's a "percent of weight" -- and perlite is so lightweight. Maybe that's an insignificant amount of fertilizer. But, I'd go with a different brand like Vigaro to avoid that added nutrient.

I wish we could get GrowWeedEasy's MiracleGro page(s) changed to be less broad-brush. It's like they repeat the meme, not the reality. People do use MG and have great results. That page would do growers more service if it distinguished between what the problem products are, and the ones known to be used. (It has more of a "warning, warning!" tone to it. Which is definitely warranted for *some* of the products. But, it doesn't qualify it that way.).
 
BillyKidd, that's the flagship product I was speaking of. That's the one (and the "moisture control" potting mixes) that give MG a bad name, the reflexive "Never use MG!." It may not be too strong to grow in. I think much of the problem is that people use it and then feed on top of it. They just think that's how you grow (soil and feed). You're taking into account it's 6-month claim and not feeding on top of it. So, that may make it usable.

I would still not use that one, if it were me. On the surface it sounds complete for an entire grow. But, I believe it contains time-release synthetic nutrients. Nothing wrong with synthetics, but I'd rather deliver them each watering. With the time-release encapsulation, you don't have any control over it. That's what is reported about that specific potting mix. It just releases with each watering, and could be too much (although, maybe people feed on top of it and create a problem that way. I don't know.).

IMO, the Organic Choice would be better. And, then feed on top of it. Or, mix worm castings into it, some compost and make it "complete" in a more organic sense (so the roots have some control over the release of nutrients).

If you can think of it, I'd like to hear how it turns out for you. Either post back here. Or, PM me. I'm always trying to understand how MG is working for people. There's a lot of "wide paintbrushes" applied to MG. It's almost like a shibolleth. People have to say "never use anything MG!" to identify with the "in group." What "real growers" say. I think 99% of the people who say it have never tried it. So, I like to hear first-hand accounts. There's lots of people successfully using MG products. I think they're relatively silent about it because of the reflexive hate. (But, I do think there are *some* MG products that are problematic. It's been my impression the potting mix you're using is one of them. So, I'd like to hear more about how it turns out.).
 
I like organic soil better as well, but a friend of mine he has been using that particular MG since he couldn't get Black Gold soil any more. I've tried his MG grown plants, and won't hear me complain.
Any how, I'm looking for another recipe for soil, but I may try using that build a soil again with a little bit of Kind soil mixed in, keep in mind, build a soil is a non till soil. Just worried it might be to hot...but that's what bag seeds are for, right!
 
That’s the spirit, mate! Adventure forth in the name of SCIENCE.

. . .

And getting high
 
"a friend of mine he has been using that particular MG.... I've tried his MG grown plants; won't hear me complain."

Thanks for telling me that. That's the first time I've heard of anyone continuing to use "MG Potting Mix" (the flagship potting mix. It's named confusingly because there are other MG potting mixes. When someone says "I use MG potting mix" it turns into a Abbott & Costello routine. "Which potting mix?" "The potting mix." "I know, but which one?").

I've seen photos of one grow (mid veg) and it looked a little overfed (leaf edges cupped down, shiny surface). But, not bad. I didn't see how it turned out (through flower).

Honestly, I think a lot of the anti-MG sentiment is just a result of new growers tend to reach for the easiest, most available products. And then, new growers make more mistakes. What we end up seeing is a lot of poor-performing MG grows, which turns into "never use MG products. It's not formulated for cannabis." I think 99% of people who say that have never grown with any MG product. Just repeating what's expected to be said.

For example, from my perspective, I've always thought Fox Farms is garbage because I see so many overfed plants, often kept too wet to long. My impression has been that the soil is too hot, too dense/heavy, takes too long to dry. But, it could be the exact same situation: new growers reach for Fox Farms, and then make new-grower mistakes. (I've seen some Ocean Forest grows that look good. The difference: the grower didn't feed on top of it. The plants still look a little overfed from the soil alone. But, not bad. That may be the same condition as MG's flagship "Potting Mix" product. New growers make both look bad.).

I'll have to grow a plant in that MG flagship "Potting Mix" one of these days. So far I've used MG Tomato & All-Purpose fertilizers. They seem fine. I'm eager try the Performance Organic fertilizer. That ratio really does look right to me.
 
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