Organic Grow: Swiss Cheese-Extreme Defoliation Vs Light Defoliation

[berrypilot]

🌱 "Yay!" to see someone was testing this! I've personally not had very good luck with defoliation in the vegetative stage when I did a side-by-side like this. The defoliated plant just grew slower than the one that was left untouched.

But when I did a side-by-side in the flowering stage defoliation made a HUGE positive difference! The defoliated plant got almost 150% the yields as the undefoliated plant (they were about the same size right before 12/12 though they weren't clones, so definitely an experiment that should be taken with a grain of salt).

But due to what I experienced, I never defol except really big annoying leaves in the veg stage, and when the plant is budding I only defol in the beginning then early-middle of the flowering stage like it says on the website. I haven't experimented with more defol in the flowering stage than that, but I'm following all the journals on here that do extreme plucking so I'm waiting to see how that turns out on average. Besides the two side-by-sides I did from years ago, all my "comparisons" are more my overall feelings from grow to grow, and what I've read online, since I usually haven't been growing enough plants at a time to do good experiments. I've only grown a few dozen plants over several years, and all small grows, so I'm not very experienced at all when it comes to optimizing grows like this. I feel like I am just starting to get my growing legs. I am super interested in experiments like this now!

Quick question, are you giving them nutrients yet? They look a little dark like they're getting a lot of Nitrogen but that might just be because of hot soil, which means they just need time to grow into it. 🌱

 

[PaganRich]

Yes....I`m just beginning to increase feeds...it`s now alternate, a compost tea as a drink and then the other is a heavier veg orientated compost tea......the stuff I make is super charged but not too much if that makes sense.....great fed back by the way....thanks

 

[berrypilot]

🌱 Can't wait to see your next installment! How do you make the compost teas (or do you buy them)? I've thought about adding it to the grow since I just started growing outside this year for the first time in soil. Our local hydroponics shop gives worm tea away for free if you bring your own container. I think they're trying to get you in with something that costs them almost nothing, in hopes you'll buy something else in the store 🌱

 

[PaganRich]

Berrypilot....I have 5 teas...I don`t ever just add water so my teas are thus; microbial or fungal without additional nutes, microbial with nutes, fungal with light flowering nutes, fungal with heavy flowering nutes....depending on the receipe I`ll use fox farm ferts, volcanic dust, potas soft rock, bird and bat shit (peruvian,mex or jamaican), molasses, seaweed, worm castings, soil and female stockings which are raising eyebrows in my local Sainsbury`s....and respective brewing times....the receipe is rocket fuel and from a lad whose name I have sadly lost though should be credited as he did some mighty fine research....this tea adds original flavour you just dont get with hydro or chemicals regardless what chem advertizers may claim....it doesn`t taste like run of the meal shit, it has a different taste, a creaping hit and an interesting play on stoned plus I sometimes alternate microbial and fungal teas to compliment their strengths....as an aside my apple tea fell over from fruit, my roses and passion flowers have gone ape shit, orchids flower continuously and the lawn now houses tribes from the Amazon....tis amazing stuff but it takes time and effort to brew and does have a certain over-powering stench and chem`s are cheaper though if you live in the States this could be off-set as I have to import.........Anything I can do to help as I am seriously up re teas, just ask mate

 

[berrypilot]

🌱 You may have opened up a can of worms! So with the teas, do you have a reservoir of water, then add the additives, and let it stew? I live in a small space, so I'm not sure I could handle something really smelly indoors, and I'm trying to keep things on the down-low outdoors. Is this your first grow using teas, or have you tried it before?

I have grown hydro, then coco, and now I'm trying soil, so I'm interested to see the difference in smell/taste. I've only tried two nutrient systems over maybe 10 small indoor grows over the years, in hydro and coco. I used General Hydroponics Flora trio in hydro, then I did the same nutrients with coco coir, and then I did coco coir with Fox Farm Hydro Nutrient trio and now I'm doing soil with Fox Farm Soil Nutrient trio. When it comes to hydro vs coco and GH vs FF, I really haven't been able to notice a difference (though I didn't do a side by side, just comparing grow over grow, and sometimes months pass by in between grows).

Most of my buds have come out smelly and smooth for the most part. But I have had bad batches that were harsh or tasted bad. I'm not certain but it seems to be more of a drying/curing thing (at least for me) than the nutrients. I'm trying to pin it down, but I noticed I seem to get better results in the winter so it makes me think with me I'm getting bad results when I dry/cure them in dry heat. Like if it's 85F and 40% humidity in the closet and I cure in there, even if I remove them when small stems snap and put them in jars like normal, I feel like the buds tend to pop when I'm smoking, and also the hay smell sticks around for longer. It might take 6 weeks of curing to get the weed smell back, instead of just 2 or 4.

I feel like I've had the best smell/taste results when I've dried in cool temperatures, and also I put a Boveda 62 pack in with my buds right from when I first jar them, and I think that makes a big difference. I think the low humidity and heat where I live messes with them. As I said, I'm definitely still in the testing process! 🌱

 

[PaganRich]

I live in a very humid country...think of a spounge....so I run a de-humifier constantly in my main tent to keep threats of mold at bay. I grow in soil and prefer that medium though I will one day go hydro but at the moment thats not for me. With the weather you`re right, summer has been hot here going up to 32C which caused mega probs but from drying that has helped. Regrding curing the harshness does sound like a little longer is needed. I cure between 60-70% humidity, burping as I go. I also like to `sweat` the buds when they first go into a jar. I find my best cured smokes are around 2 months for me.....I would be inclined to put a general question out on this forum with a couple of pics.....the popping, etc plus the harshness could be something hydro??? that a little tweaking could sort out.I don`t know .
Teas-I`ve been working on this for a-whiles now and am a true blue believer but organic teas, as far as I know, as soils though my mate told me you can do organic hydro grows......I `m really not sure that any of this will help, sorry...Doombar, red wine, a volcano and a surprise visitor has resulted in this cloudiness......I need more coffee If you do grow organic then I do recommend a volcano as it really brings out the taste

 

[berrypilot]

🌱 The thing is, I experienced the popping/harshness from the coco grow with FF nutes (mostly organic). But I've done a coco grow with the same nutes and they came out great, and I also did coco with GH trio (chemical nutrients) and that also came out great. With the hydro, I always used GH trio, and it seems like it was harsh in the summer, but when I harvested in the winter it came out perfect, even though everything else was exactly the same. I do think it's important to flush for at least 3 days to a week in hydro with plain water. I feel like I did notice a difference between flushing and not flushing.

Again, I haven't totally pinned it down, so it could be other things and maybe this is just a coincidence. When it comes to curing it's so weird. When I get a "good" dry/cure I feel like buds are so flavorful and smelly and smooth by the end of week 2. By month two they're divine. But sometimes if I have a "bad" dry/cure, they'll taste bad and be harsh for many weeks, and smell like hay instead of weed, it's not until they've been curing for a month or two before they're even really "good".

I feel like a long cure can make up for a "bad" cure, but it's better to get it right in the beginning, so you can really enjoy it as it keeps improving.

Right now I'm using organic soil with FF soil nutrients (again, mostly organic), and I'm interested to see what my results are. It's possible there's a bigger difference between coco/hydro and soil, because it really didn't seem like I had much difference in bud quality between coco and hydro, or with chemical vs organic nutrients.

Perhaps it is actually be a secret of the medium, and not the nutrients! But I'm really curious how it could improve because when I have a good cure I've been so happy with the bud quality, smell, smoothness and just overall potency! I haven't tried anything even close to as good as what I've grown, so it would be amazing to get something even better! 🌱

 

[PaganRich]

Sounds to me that you have almost cracked the connection and it is impressive how you have tackled this, that`s for sure....you certainly sound like you`ve got the curing locked down. The only thing I`d say is that feed back from mates has been that a true organic grow with natural combined ingredients done at home like bat shit, etc does give a different `experience/ taste` to more commercially grown yields. I know you said you`d struggle to brew teas but you can get these brewing tubs on line that seem to possibly tackle this to a degree....worth considering if you have some spare change

 

[berrypilot]

🌱 Brewing tubs online?! I'm checking that out right now. If I can do that I'm getting some KIND composted soil and seeing if I can put some autos out so they're ready by the winter. Between KIND and compost teas it would be the "true" organic experience. I've heard the same as you, that the best flavor and smell comes from true organics with composted soil!

So do you think it would work if I made something like this? Basically it looks like a hydroponic reservoir without netpots. If that's all I need I think I may be able to make this happen! I feel like having a lid would keep the smells inside. In fact, I may already have the parts to make one since I have stuff to do a hydro grow! 🌱

 

[Beach_Town_Brit]

They both look strong Pagan.
My plants seem to love the heavy defoliation, though I do wonder if the heavy training delays flowering a bit (that's kind of a good thing with an auto I think).

 

[PaganRich]

Def BTB....Been my experience as well mate

 

[PaganRich]

To be honest making it yourself is probably better, I never trust taps and you will need a good silent running pump and there is a ratio for air bubbles to liquid....I work on a min 8 air units to 23 litres,,,,what I use are 3 x JBL ProSilent 400`s double valves with 6 air discs as well as 2 small heating tubes.....be careful not to over aerate as that is equally as damaging as under aeration....When I run 2 buckets with a second smaller one, then I just reduce the liquid amounts and separate the stones....buy stockings in bulk as it`s embaressing otherwise and start your fungal preparation roughly 4-5 days before needed......there are some youtube vids out there but its a bit hit and miss.....also the book `Teaming with Microbes` is an interesting read but buy a used version as it can be a little pricey......below are some pics of my set up at the moment.......it smells bad but it`s a `good` bad if you know what I mean and when brewing and watering, the smell is what I go buy.....also, it covers the smell of weed but you wiff like a pig farm if you`re not careful

 

[PaganRich]

No Title

Berrypilot.........................................

 

[berrypilot]

🌱 It's like being a scientist making a magic concoction that will please your plants! If I had a lid on it, do you think that would mostly keep the smell inside? I'm wondering how much my husband would mind, as he's sensitive to manure and other "poopy" smells 🌱

 

[Beach_Town_Brit]

Do you think of that as a good thing?
I feel it then stretches flowering a bit too ... but then maybe my use of LEDs is shortening flowering again.
I've always topped and trained my autos so my only comparisons are watching other people's grow.

 

[PaganRich]

Swings and roundabouts I suppose....you could argue that if done correctly, defol increases growth output which yields more keeping you going longer til next harvest so delay then is worked into your grows...just a thought

 

[PaganRich]

No Title

First 3 photos show pre-defol and post heavy defol and then back into tent, photo 4 shows cheese that is under light trimming and I did nought here and last pics show back in tent and side by side as comparison......hopefully that all made sense There`s not a lot in it but the heavy defol has caught up with the other as it had been lagging a tad

 

[Beach_Town_Brit]

They're close but I agree with Berry, the flowering defol will make the winner I think.

 

[PaganRich]

It`s very hot here at the moment, maybe this is favouring the lightly defol-ed girl...I would imagine so

 

[PaganRich]

No Title

Three pics are as follows: #1-Light defol lass and again nothing snipped off her today, #2 & #4 before and after heavy defol.....appears, though slightly hard to see in these pics that heavy defol has caught up and over-taken slightly the light defol....I also like ravens and I have rooks living on my roof which makes it bloody noisy when the young ones are stomping around shouting at each other but it does make me chuckle