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Everything EC related
- Thread starter Sockfilter
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Sockfilter
New member
9fingerleafs, awesome info and thank you, yes I have read and continue to RE-READ Campesino's guides and info he spreads throughout the forum. Comes a point in time where I have to quit reading and tend to the girls, animals etc..
It's slowly sinking in.
As with most of everything, I learn best by actually doing it and making mistakes, as I mentioned above my goal is to not even need labels off of nutes, but to just visually Dx w/ EC inflow/runoff, and of pH in right range..
Gonna suck up some of this great info as fresh off the press for my eyes, I have noticed when I add Bloom or Koolbloom that the EC is not nearly as effected as say with the same volume of cal-mag..
"also you should remember that all elements have different electrical conductivity so when in a solution a 1:1 ratio exange of ions may result in a rise or deacrease in EC;
potassium is half as conductive as calcium (http://periodictable.com/Properties/...tivity.an.html) in fact thats why we have different TDS scales, NaCl scale is 500ppm=1EC and KCl scale is 700ppm=1EC witch means potassium needs more ions in order to register the same EC reading"
It's slowly sinking in.
As with most of everything, I learn best by actually doing it and making mistakes, as I mentioned above my goal is to not even need labels off of nutes, but to just visually Dx w/ EC inflow/runoff, and of pH in right range..
Gonna suck up some of this great info as fresh off the press for my eyes, I have noticed when I add Bloom or Koolbloom that the EC is not nearly as effected as say with the same volume of cal-mag..
"also you should remember that all elements have different electrical conductivity so when in a solution a 1:1 ratio exange of ions may result in a rise or deacrease in EC;
potassium is half as conductive as calcium (http://periodictable.com/Properties/...tivity.an.html) in fact thats why we have different TDS scales, NaCl scale is 500ppm=1EC and KCl scale is 700ppm=1EC witch means potassium needs more ions in order to register the same EC reading"
Sockfilter
New member
Holy Buckets batman, Campesino, Chefbjy, this is EXACTLY the type of info I am interested in.. Thank you guys a million times over.
Yes it makes common sense that anything which is organic and can break down over time will upset equilibrium (well old equilibrium), I suppose in a way, when matter is breaking down it is ALWAYS establishing a new equilibrium? Do you guys think that is safe to assume?
Yes Campesino, I am VERY UNCERTAIN of my coco being properly buffered to fulfill the CEC with CA, (exchanging K for CA) and thus why I started this thread as you mentioned it is a bit chaotic.
Yes I did drop down the cal-mag when I went into flower, however NEVER saw any signs of cal deficiency in veg, once I saw a bit of nute burn, I dropped down the PPM's (of course I lowered cal/mag as that sheds PPM's faster than weight watchers setup outside dunkin doughnuts), ran that for a few days and started getting the claw, well that tells me, WAY TOO much Nitrogen (first thought anyways) so I dial back the Micro, but then I start to see the cal/mag deficiency signs. Then it's like what the heck do I drop PPM's of nute solution or focus on more cal/mag.
So yes I nightmare, but awesome for learning and yes this is a new pheno for me and just having to tend to her neediness which I do believe is a direct result from NOT buffering the coco..
In theory, if the girl is doing well, heavy in flower not drinking much water, but sucking up more nutes, then that would be an indicator of the runoff EC being lower (slightly) correct?
Here is where I need more experience and knowledge, How do we know if the slightly lower EC runoff is due to the girl sucking up more nutes or the coco medium is just doing its CEC dance?
I am learning and thanks..
Yes it makes common sense that anything which is organic and can break down over time will upset equilibrium (well old equilibrium), I suppose in a way, when matter is breaking down it is ALWAYS establishing a new equilibrium? Do you guys think that is safe to assume?
Yes Campesino, I am VERY UNCERTAIN of my coco being properly buffered to fulfill the CEC with CA, (exchanging K for CA) and thus why I started this thread as you mentioned it is a bit chaotic.
Yes I did drop down the cal-mag when I went into flower, however NEVER saw any signs of cal deficiency in veg, once I saw a bit of nute burn, I dropped down the PPM's (of course I lowered cal/mag as that sheds PPM's faster than weight watchers setup outside dunkin doughnuts), ran that for a few days and started getting the claw, well that tells me, WAY TOO much Nitrogen (first thought anyways) so I dial back the Micro, but then I start to see the cal/mag deficiency signs. Then it's like what the heck do I drop PPM's of nute solution or focus on more cal/mag.
So yes I nightmare, but awesome for learning and yes this is a new pheno for me and just having to tend to her neediness which I do believe is a direct result from NOT buffering the coco..
In theory, if the girl is doing well, heavy in flower not drinking much water, but sucking up more nutes, then that would be an indicator of the runoff EC being lower (slightly) correct?
Here is where I need more experience and knowledge, How do we know if the slightly lower EC runoff is due to the girl sucking up more nutes or the coco medium is just doing its CEC dance?
I am learning and thanks..
Last edited:
Campesino
Banned
In my understanding, the processes through which plants adsorb nutrients do not have significant impact on the EC of the nutrient solution. When you plants are taking up the nutrients they are making exchanges which maintains an equilibrium. This is an area where I am working to deepen my understanding, but I do not believe that you can tell how much of the nutrients in the solution are being used by the plant without very expensive chemical analysis. This is ultimately, the main advantage of Drain to waste systems over recirculation. In recirculation, the EC stays the same (even rises due to evaporation), but the amounts of NPK etc are all decreasing through time as they are taken up by the plant.
When you are unsure about the buffer then I recommend maintaining full dose Cal Mag until late bloom. You should cut base nutes to create EC room.
Got to go check the girls
When you are unsure about the buffer then I recommend maintaining full dose Cal Mag until late bloom. You should cut base nutes to create EC room.
Got to go check the girls
Chefbjy
New member
There are many factors to consider in untreated coco the fact that it hasn't been bonded to ca mg can lead to it binding to a mobile nutrient like n since you had toxicity. The fact that there are holes in your profile are concerning but not a death sentence. The salt deposits can and will cling to the coco these salts(ions) aren't being evenly distributed which will have no effect on ec but will hinder the uptake of nutrients that are somewhat suppressed. To my understanding the inflow ec should be increased and as Campesino said with camg being a major part of your feed these nutrients are immobile and with k being a major ion dispersed in coco it will be harder to absorb the ca mg. Like I stated before it can also bond to n which is probably why you noticed the toxicity.
But if your distribution of wetting the coco is uneven it can deposit salts in the areas not being watered. I would think your outflow would be much higher if those areas were getting the right amount of water. But I'm new to this too so my info is based of google research. By no means am I educated in horticulture plant science or coco per say. I don't claim that I'm a scholar in botany or horticulture either. But I can read and write and process information that is pertinent to the subject. I will read more and deepen my knowledge as well 😉.
But if your distribution of wetting the coco is uneven it can deposit salts in the areas not being watered. I would think your outflow would be much higher if those areas were getting the right amount of water. But I'm new to this too so my info is based of google research. By no means am I educated in horticulture plant science or coco per say. I don't claim that I'm a scholar in botany or horticulture either. But I can read and write and process information that is pertinent to the subject. I will read more and deepen my knowledge as well 😉.
Campesino
Banned
I had to go back and re-read everything here because I think I have been partially confused as to the topic of conversation. I'm on track now...
I agree with Chefbjy , the colloids will do all sorts of exchanges if unbuffered and N can certainly be involved. I do think that increasing the dose of CaMg is the best course of action to satisfy the buffer in situ. I understand Chefbjy 's point about raising EC, but that does introduce other potential problems with osmosis (The main reason we measure EC) I suppose the the increase in EC caused by raising the dose of CaMg would be fine.
Sockfilter If the buffer wasn't causing problems earlier in the grow, I suspect that it will not be difficult to resolve the issues going forward, if you add more cal mag
I agree with Chefbjy , the colloids will do all sorts of exchanges if unbuffered and N can certainly be involved. I do think that increasing the dose of CaMg is the best course of action to satisfy the buffer in situ. I understand Chefbjy 's point about raising EC, but that does introduce other potential problems with osmosis (The main reason we measure EC) I suppose the the increase in EC caused by raising the dose of CaMg would be fine.
Sockfilter If the buffer wasn't causing problems earlier in the grow, I suspect that it will not be difficult to resolve the issues going forward, if you add more cal mag
Sockfilter
New member
Campesino Chefbjy , excellent info in the sub-thread above guys and greatly appreciate it.
Yes Chef I am digging the theory that since I did not buffer properly that somehow the over abundance of N became a slight issue, for sure something I will go down the rabbit hole in search of more knowledge.
Yes Campesino, I do feel that is a safe course of action, I do feel that I was able to maintain a decent Ca/Mg level in veg, however that leaves me with the 2 prong question that I will have to figure out for myself, did I actually keep the coco CEC full or did I supply just enough Ca/Mg to supply a little to girl while the coco was robbing some of it? HAHA good question that I am sure we would all like the answer too..
So here is what I am playing with at the moment:
Lights on 2000, fertigate with 600 ppm (4.5ml calmag. 2ml Micro, 3ml bloom, 1.5ml koolbloom) pH 6.0, about 1 quart with 15% runoff, runoff last night was 560ppm.
0200- fertigate with 1 gal RO w/ 6ml calmag, pHd 6.0 about 1 quart (starting ppms lower than I wanted at 460ppm, gonna bump that up to match nute ppm of ~600) runoff was a bit higher as compared to inflow however I speculated it would be due to prior 2000 feeding with higher 600ppm.
0730- prior to lights out @ 0800, same as 2000 feeding, fertigate with 600 ppm (4.5ml calmag. 2ml Micro, 3ml bloom, 1.5ml koolbloom) pH 6.0, about 1 quart with 15% runoff, runoff this morning was around 610ppm, so finally seeing a slight uptick in my EC runoff..
So yes a little sideways on the feedings, yet I am dealing with a sideways problem..haha
I suppose I didnt really want this thread to be about a singular EC problem, however more of a go to thread for most EC related issues, however this topic may be a bit more than people are wanting to take on at the moment, So Thanks guys again for contributing..
Yes Chef I am digging the theory that since I did not buffer properly that somehow the over abundance of N became a slight issue, for sure something I will go down the rabbit hole in search of more knowledge.
Yes Campesino, I do feel that is a safe course of action, I do feel that I was able to maintain a decent Ca/Mg level in veg, however that leaves me with the 2 prong question that I will have to figure out for myself, did I actually keep the coco CEC full or did I supply just enough Ca/Mg to supply a little to girl while the coco was robbing some of it? HAHA good question that I am sure we would all like the answer too..
So here is what I am playing with at the moment:
Lights on 2000, fertigate with 600 ppm (4.5ml calmag. 2ml Micro, 3ml bloom, 1.5ml koolbloom) pH 6.0, about 1 quart with 15% runoff, runoff last night was 560ppm.
0200- fertigate with 1 gal RO w/ 6ml calmag, pHd 6.0 about 1 quart (starting ppms lower than I wanted at 460ppm, gonna bump that up to match nute ppm of ~600) runoff was a bit higher as compared to inflow however I speculated it would be due to prior 2000 feeding with higher 600ppm.
0730- prior to lights out @ 0800, same as 2000 feeding, fertigate with 600 ppm (4.5ml calmag. 2ml Micro, 3ml bloom, 1.5ml koolbloom) pH 6.0, about 1 quart with 15% runoff, runoff this morning was around 610ppm, so finally seeing a slight uptick in my EC runoff..
So yes a little sideways on the feedings, yet I am dealing with a sideways problem..haha
I suppose I didnt really want this thread to be about a singular EC problem, however more of a go to thread for most EC related issues, however this topic may be a bit more than people are wanting to take on at the moment, So Thanks guys again for contributing..
Chefbjy
New member
Hmm ro you say... This is what I read..
When the water used to mix nutrients is very soft, then the concentration of nutrients has to go up or the coco will rob the nutrients and a Calcium deficiency will begin to show. This is exactly due to these issues. With the popularity in Reverse Osmosis systems sky-rocketing, this issue is seen more and more often. Growers plan to use pure water, feed lightly to avoid burn and feed often to keep things pumping. This however is avoidable by adding back some of the original water to buffer the water once more. There is no other very effective cure and the throwing of a Calcium/ Magnesium product at the problem gets worse over time. Adding a higher EC of the nutrients is a better and safer option.
When the water used to mix nutrients is very soft, then the concentration of nutrients has to go up or the coco will rob the nutrients and a Calcium deficiency will begin to show. This is exactly due to these issues. With the popularity in Reverse Osmosis systems sky-rocketing, this issue is seen more and more often. Growers plan to use pure water, feed lightly to avoid burn and feed often to keep things pumping. This however is avoidable by adding back some of the original water to buffer the water once more. There is no other very effective cure and the throwing of a Calcium/ Magnesium product at the problem gets worse over time. Adding a higher EC of the nutrients is a better and safer option.
Sockfilter
New member
Chefbjy, Yes exactly RO water and I have toyed (and continue to do so when all is stable) with buffering back in some well water, which is HIGH in cal mag, yet an excruciating 7.0+ pH.
For awhile I was mixing back in about 1qt of well into 3qt RO to get a starting ppm of 60-70ish, which in my mind allowed me to offset the friggen high EC of the calmag. Fine tuning to offset waste, costs and improve the girls.
I start running into some strange pH shifts and harder to adjust, or it appears that away to me, when I add back too much well. Yes I am glutton for punishment as I refuse to buy another damn pH meter..haha, so I just use the GH indicator drops with no real issues other than not knowing the exact pH.
So when I make up a nute jug, if I buffer just enough well to get a starting ppm of 60ish, add in calmag, bases etc, I get a STABLE ph color reading. however the more well water I use, I typically get a color reading of a decent 5.5-6.0, but that color shifts to around a 7.0pH reading.. So yes this headache could be resolved, but feel I have had bigger issues relying on a crappy meter (yes crappy as it fits my crappy budget..lol).
So you are thinking I should toy with upping the EC a bit? I am a bit gunshy on this new pheno as she took a slight nute and N hit.. I will smoke that idea over..
Thanks
For awhile I was mixing back in about 1qt of well into 3qt RO to get a starting ppm of 60-70ish, which in my mind allowed me to offset the friggen high EC of the calmag. Fine tuning to offset waste, costs and improve the girls.
I start running into some strange pH shifts and harder to adjust, or it appears that away to me, when I add back too much well. Yes I am glutton for punishment as I refuse to buy another damn pH meter..haha, so I just use the GH indicator drops with no real issues other than not knowing the exact pH.
So when I make up a nute jug, if I buffer just enough well to get a starting ppm of 60ish, add in calmag, bases etc, I get a STABLE ph color reading. however the more well water I use, I typically get a color reading of a decent 5.5-6.0, but that color shifts to around a 7.0pH reading.. So yes this headache could be resolved, but feel I have had bigger issues relying on a crappy meter (yes crappy as it fits my crappy budget..lol).
So you are thinking I should toy with upping the EC a bit? I am a bit gunshy on this new pheno as she took a slight nute and N hit..
I will smoke that idea over..Thanks
Campesino
Banned
Sockfilter
The interval flush with "CalMag" water is not advised (The 0200 irrigation). As Chefbjy suggests you need to have a fairly high and consistent EC. You also need to provide the best nutrient ratio possible. This means Fertigate every time - don't irrigate with CalMag water.
This is even more true since your issue is EC lowering.
The #1 thing to watch for when raising EC is tip burn.
In answer to your Q above, I think the Coco and the plant have been competing for Ca. When you provide a full dose the plant is able to get some before the coco steals the rest. Eventually the Coco should become satisfied.
The interval flush with "CalMag" water is not advised (The 0200 irrigation). As Chefbjy suggests you need to have a fairly high and consistent EC. You also need to provide the best nutrient ratio possible. This means Fertigate every time - don't irrigate with CalMag water.
This is even more true since your issue is EC lowering.
The #1 thing to watch for when raising EC is tip burn.
In answer to your Q above, I think the Coco and the plant have been competing for Ca. When you provide a full dose the plant is able to get some before the coco steals the rest. Eventually the Coco should become satisfied.
Sockfilter
New member
Campesino, Sounds good nixing the cal/mag only and replacing with fertigation. I did just that last night as I was seeing much better EC readings as I make sure the EC inflow is consistent..
I recall reading that in your coco thread and there is some truth behind it gradually transitioning a plants EC intake..
I recall reading that in your coco thread and there is some truth behind it gradually transitioning a plants EC intake..
FlyingDutchPaddy
New member
Hello good people,
EC/PPM measurements... always an interesting topic of discussion
From the discussions so far I've learnt a lot but the one thing that I was wondering about:
The nutrient schedule for recirculating setups as referenced here: https://www.growweedeasy.com/sites/...eed-General-Hydroponics-nutrient-schedule.pdf
It has the amounts of nutrients needed to add to water, but I suppose what is missing are extra columns for target PPM/EC , based on what plain water EC/PPM was started with as a reference.
Suppose after mixing the nutrients the target EC/PPM is still way off, what would you add to get the target EC/PPM ?
EC/PPM measurements... always an interesting topic of discussion
From the discussions so far I've learnt a lot but the one thing that I was wondering about:
The nutrient schedule for recirculating setups as referenced here: https://www.growweedeasy.com/sites/...eed-General-Hydroponics-nutrient-schedule.pdf
It has the amounts of nutrients needed to add to water, but I suppose what is missing are extra columns for target PPM/EC , based on what plain water EC/PPM was started with as a reference.
Suppose after mixing the nutrients the target EC/PPM is still way off, what would you add to get the target EC/PPM ?