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Trying to grow "Shogun" and constantly failing in the seedling phase - ANY CLUE?

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    HELP! Trying to grow "Shogun" and constantly failing in the seedling phase - ANY CLUE?

    Hi guys,

    I've been trying to grow the Shogun strain by RQS indoors desperately and the next attempt is probably going to be my last. I have succeeded once (during summer/with more humid air), but have failed during my last 3 attempts in the past 2 months.

    Every seedling always started yellowing, leaves started looking "wilty" (?) and eventually the plant just died - whatever I did. I just don't know what's the last remaining factor I did not think about. Does somebody of you have any idea what is happening to this plant?

    I'm growing in coco coir, not using any nutrients at this stage, but mineral water of which I control the pH value (maybe this is why the plant dies, is mineral water bad?). I'm controlling the temperature and the relative humidity using an air humidifier (also with pH-controlled water with pH value around 6). The air humidity is "at least" around 60 % (max. 75 %) where plants should not die? I'm growing with a setup by SuperGreenLabs and several LED panels - it can't be the intensity of the light (around 30 % of intensity only), and it can't be the proximity of the panels to the plant.

    Somebody: any clue? Could it be the mineral water? Should I use nutrients even with the seedlings? Is the relative humidity of at least 60 % fine, could that be the reason it dies?

    Happy for any help!

    Your coco needs to be aerated. Use perlite. A minimum of 70/30 coco to perlite. I use a 50/50 blend. Coco will pack hard if it's not aerated and it gets a little dry. Also, coco has no nutrients for your plants. Without knowing how long they are receiving only water it's hard to say if they are starving, but that's what it appears. After the cotyledon leaves are fully open, your plant will need some food. There is enough nutrients in the seed itself to sustain the plant's life at the very beginning but it will need nutrients. Others will have varying opinions but start your plant on 1/4 to 1/2 strength nutrients so as to not over feed your plants and cause nutrient burn and possible stunting. I start feeding my sprouts once the cotyledon leaves are open and the first set of regular leaves show themselves. Do you have nutrients?
    Auto/Photo Tent: Gorilla 2x4x7'11", HLG 350R, Infinity 4" w/Carbon Filter, Autopot system, Coco 50/50 perlite: photo fem Purple Haze x Malawi x 2 Seeds dropped 2-2-24
    Photo Tent: Gorilla 4x4x7'11" HLG Scorpion R, Infinity 6” w/Carbon Filter, Coco 50/50 perlite, Autopot system: 100% Sativa Ace Seeds Malawi x 4
    Nutrients: CX Horticulture - full line for both tents


      Is this your first all coco grow? Did you buffer the coco, rinse the coco? Yes i'd say you need to feed it like the above said.
      Smoke Ganja create Peace Respect Nature don't trash the Planet

      Soil grower with coco/perlite mixed in
      indoor/outdoor grower
      1 36"x36"x66" tent- Viparspectra P2500
      1 3x3x6 tent- used in late spring for seedlings both veggies & weed. I have 2 viparspectar 450r for that tent.
      I use a t-5 & 54watt CFL for seedlings
      Sometimes i use plastic sometimes i use fabric grow containers
      Currently using fish/guano during veg growth & FF Grow Big 6-4-4 teens to bloom. Once i see pre-flower i switch to
      Age Old Organics Bloom 5-10-5


        About the water, is it well or spring water, natural ground water? or is it bottled? Have you had it tested?
        Mineral water is also known as spring water because it comes from natural springs, which are places where moving underground water comes out of an opening in the land's surface. Mineral water can also be made artificially by adding salts to distilled water or aerating it with carbon dioxide to create more carbonation.​


          IMO the two most important thing about seedlings in coco - they need nutes almost right away, and they need to dry out between waterings. I give first nutes about 10 days after germination, but others soak the coco with nutes before transferring. Either way yellow seedlings mean lack of nutes or the roots are being starved of o2.


            Have you thought about germinating outside the substrate then transplanting into the coco substrate?


              Thanks for all the input! Some answers:
              • This is not my first coco grow. I have had other (successful ones), but not with Shogun. Other strains seems to have been easier to handle.
              • I have germinated the seed outside of the coco coir. Aerating it is a nice touch I have not yet thought of, thank you very much. I have not needed it in the past, but seems smart.
              • You might be on to something regarding the nutes, though! I have only used bottled mineral water from some spring without nutes. I will try using 1/4 or 1/5 of nutes after 10 days now.
              Also, I have readjusted that humidity sensors and seen that the humidity around the plant is not that great. The effects seem to be humidity-related as well. Probably a mixture of nutrient deficiency + low humidity.


                In their rawest form, soilless substrates like coconut coir do not contain any nutrients, so they are considered inert.

                You might as well planted them in a kitchen sponge.


                  It's fine to plant & grow in 100% coco. Adding perlite is said to help with getting air to the roots but it's not necessary. I did add it to my coco this grow because I am growing 4 autos and wanted to give them a quick start. Seedlings should get up and grow a bit faster in a coco/perlite mix than coco on its own.

                  Light stress is easy to do if you don't measure the light at the seedling stage. Some growers on you tube and other places on the web recommend starting light at 350 PPFD. I started this first lot of seedlings at 250-300 PPFD and can tell you it was too high with temps 24⁰C ish, too high again. 150PPFD at 21⁰C day temps is safe, probably ideal once sprouted. 2-4⁰C lower of a night but at this stage many give their seedlings 24 hour light to get them started a bit better. I've never tried this.

                  Humidity is controlled using a sealed dome that light can pass through. You need to maintain 100% RH until roots have developed. If all going well this is about 4-7 days then you ventilate the dome to around 80%RH. If you push your plants with a bit much light and a bit high temps then it will take longer to root as in my case. Pushing them a bit slowed them down.

                  Seedlings will handle plain old water for 7 days no problem. Some run longer.. I use rainwater so that means it's about as soft as it gets. I cannot pH test rainwater on its own so don't bother. No issues with that.

                  My coco is a mix of old and new. I don't buffer it and I didn't use a hot shot in it either. No problems there. I do wash it thoroughly both old and new by flushing with plain water before planting the germinated seed. You need to make sure you plant the germinated seed tap root down with about ½" of coco over the top of the seed head. If you don't plant deep enough it's first growth spurt will push the seed casing too high instead of pushing the tap root down and this will slow root growth even further. If this happens it may look like it is stretching for the light but it is not. Build up the coco around the stem carefully if this happens, don't mistakenly increase light intensity.

                  I started nutes carefully at 0.4 EC on about day 7. The seedlings were looking pretty good at this stage, although probably not planted deep enough, and I was going to up the EC to 1.0 next mix but a couple of days in I started noticing stress to the tips of the first true leaves. I flushed immediately and saved them with plain water for a few more days. I had too much light too high temps and burnt them with the nutes as they weren't developing roots as fast as they should as conditions were not ideal All 4 are doing fine now after I dropped temps and light intensity. 1 is mutated with no apial growth, likely stress.

                  I did use H²O² for the first time to germinate the seeds with mixed results. The mixed results were because I had 4 seeds that were not viable from the get go, and had one tap root that went as twisted as Hunter S Thompson. I think H²0² works well though but I need more experience with it. 5 of the seeds germinated and obtained 1st leaf faster than I have achieved in over 35 years of growing.

                  Normally I grow regular seeds and just germinate a few dozen seeds and select the best for dropping into the medium. This time I had fem auto and fem photo, a very small number so the pressure was on causing higher levels of anxiety. This led me to make a few changes to temp and light (small changes but a big mistake) that slowed root development causing my regular nute schedule to burn them. I've lost 3 seedlings so far out of 10. 2 my fault from too much light and nutes a bit early relative to root growth, 1 fault, badly twisted reticle.

                  One more thing. Letting coco dry out is bad. Fine in soil but in coco it leaves behind lots of salt and it can burn the roots. Always water at least daily but small amounts. Don't flood it but you must keep it moist at all times from about a ½" down.
                  Last edited by Bluey; 02-12-2024, 07:21 PM.
                  Grow Room: 11' x 7' x 7.5'H, 480w AC, 13gal/day dehumidifier, 1.5gal ultrasonic humidifier, 60gal (27gal usable) nute tank, 16" pedestal fan & 18" wall fan. Lighting, fertigation and climate automated
                  Lights: 2 x SF-7000, 5 x 30w 660&730nm supp. red boosters for flower
                  Medium: Coco/perlite, 13gal pots for photos, 7.2gal pots ¾ filled for autos, no drains
                  Current Grow: ​​​4 x Autos Franklin's AK47 x Red CBD, 2 x Autos Greenhouse Seeds Amsterdam Sweet Mango, 2 x Photos Franklin's Orange Zkittles x Sour Diesel. All feminised.
                  Last Grow: 4 x photos, old school, 66 days of veg flipped 25 Feb harvested day 65F 3lb11oz.
                  Previous Grow: Lots of big dead mouldy buds, medium and small buds made it, barely. Primarily indica traits from sativas.. Cured in glass jars.


                  • Bluey
                    Bluey commented
                    Editing a comment
                    I wouldn't use high frequency in soil. Coco for sure for higher yields.

                    I'm pretty new to coco and it works great.

                    In soil I think you'll stuff up the environment needed for microbes to thrive and produce your nutes if you keep adding water too often.

                    I've had 2 seedlings fall over on me this grow and looks like I'm in trouble with 3 more. I haven't lost any seedlings in at least my last 10 grows and I am at a loss why. H²O² possibly? I don't know. 5 are up and running, 1 is stuffed though, the stressed one.

                  • golfnrl
                    golfnrl commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Rootsruler have you looked at a bottom feed wicking system? I use the autopot system but there are others out there. I've used autopots for soil and coco. I prefer coco but soil works. They recommend a 50/50 blend of either soil or coco with perlite. The plants take what water they want. I use 12 gallon rez and a PH controller to keep the PH steady. Some have concern about the roots staying wet all the time. Not sure what the concern is cause it isnt a problem. The autopot isn't for the seedling stage but I like it and my plants seem to like it as well.

                  • Rootsruler
                    Rootsruler commented
                    Editing a comment
                    golfnrl I have looked at wicking systems. I'd like to try running fertigation rather than just wicking in water. I've run wicking type systems and they're fine for organic or fully amended grows but I found them to be kind of lacking in terms of having to constantly be refilling the reservoir. Might as well just hand feed them.

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