COCO COIR So my plant randomly decided to deepfry itself over night

[Shneex0338]

Important stuff first:

• Canna Coco Pro Plus substrate (coco peat) with 30% perlite added
• Canna Coco nutrient line
• 18/6 cycle, photoperiod plant (HSC Gazzurple)
• ~380PPFD / 25DLI
• 74-76°F / 50-60% humidity daytime, 64-67°F / 55-60% humidity nighttime
• Tapwater, oxygenated, dechlorinated, 0.4EC
• Watered yesterday @ 1.1EC / 5.9PH with 10% runoff
• 1gal fabric pot with extra holes added on the bottom for the fun of it. I feel safer that way
• Apera PH20 pen, 2-point calibrated just yesterday with ph7 and ph4
• Runoff EC today read at 1.0 EC and 6.8 PH (with 1.1EC / 5.9PH input). I know it's probably useless info but I guess any details help?

My plant just decided to deepfry itself. I don't know how, why, or why even so quickly. There's suddenly spots everywhere, the leaves feel paper thin, the tips are curling up, it's all turning a neon green. It all happened over night (besides the lighter shade of green, this has been the case for some days). I don't know how this is even possible. She was always a bit of a brat, never really turned a healthy green, but today she just decided to go all in with symptoms. So far no pests or anything similar has been noticed, no fungus gnats, nothing.

What's going on here? Is it because I use citric acid to adjust PH with hydro nutrients? It's BioBizz PH down and I heard the PH goes up really quick once it's mixed into a nutrient solution, I just checked my second solution I made yesterday with 5.8PH, it's at 6.7PH after 12 hours. Could this be the cause, should I have used a specific PH down for these coco / hydro nutrients? Or is something else going on? I'm clueless as everything seems.. alright? Not perfect, especially temperature could be a bit higher, but this couldn't have caused all of this?

Edit: I just found a very old thread on a different website, and it warns about the use of citric acid and also vinegar (I don't use that) in hydro / coco grows, as the PH fluctuates severely and causes bacteria build-up. I may have found the cause, or? I'm actually rather glad that I already have some PH Down with phosphoric acid arriving soon, as this bugged my mind already for some time. It just didn't feel right.

[BaccaRacca]

Looks like when I used to miss a watering in my 2.7-gallon nursery pots, and why I went to High-Frequency Fertigation (HFF).

In other words, you fried your roots a bit, and likely before your last watering.

Basically, you are growing in a too-small cloth pot, to which you added more drain holes, and reduced the water retention properties of your mix by adding the perlite. Roots dried out quickly.

You could transplant to a hard-sided nursery pot of the same size to reduce the root dehydration, or better still if you have the room, go to a 3-gallon hard-sided pot.

Since it looks like you may have some root damage due to drying out, this is a good time to transplant.

[Shneex0338]

Are you sure they're dried out? Whenever I water, the pot stays heavy and moist for at least 2-3 days. It's coco peat, the really really fine dust-like substrate, not long strands of coco fibers. I water that plant every 24 hours with runoff, and never felt any dryness anywhere. I actually thought the pot is too big, as it's 1gal / 4 liters for such a tiny plant

[SoOrbudgal]

Transplant it into a larger pot. I never understand why use fabic 1gal pots with photoperiods when you need to transplant it anyway into a larger pot? I mean what's your goal here? You got a very young plant and you feed it and treat it as if it's 3months old? That type of coco powder compacts and does not allow medium to fully get moist unless you drop the whole pot into a bucket and let it soak for few minutes. May as well of planted it in straight peat moss. Sure it runs off and away from the roots bet it slips right by them and down the side of that pot.

[BaccaRacca]

Pretty sure. It looks like root damage from drying out -- the way the leaves kind of spoon and the brown, dried out spots. I've had experience with it. It just looks like it, and then I see what seems like you are doing everything else right, but that small, cloth pot is not doing you much good. There have been a couple of robust discussions on this topic lately. Here is a good guide to pot sizing, and the pluses and minuses of cloth bags:

https://www.growweedeasy.com/choose-right-pot#general-guide

[Shneex0338]

@SoOrbugdal, I do always transplant, it was in a 1L seedling bag at first, then transplanted into the 1 gallon pot because I want the root system to fully build. After that it's final pot with 5 gallons. I water slowly, in several rations, so the medium can soak it up, which is why the medium is also so heavy after watering. 1 gallon for me means a 4L pot, it's actually pretty big for such a tiny plant, maybe that was confusing information from my part? I don't know.

I always learned to transplant from small to medium to final container, which is what I'm doing here right now.

[Bluey]

Your pH problems are a combination of everything that you are using together inc water and medium.

I use citric acid straight from the source, a lemon tree, and have stable pH for more than 7 days. (I havent bothered to test longer duration as this is stable.) Some base nutes don't like citric acid, some base nutes prefer citric acid. Some additives or suppliments don't like citric acid either.

I did add a macro cal/mag suppliment last grow that caused the pH to run away so got rid of it and searched for one compatible with my base nutes. This was the problem that caused the quickly rising pH. I use rainwater which is similar to RO and measures 0 EC.

I don't use canna nutes because they cost more than double what I currently pay and don't do any better of a job.

Test the stability of your input pH over time. If it rises or falls quickly its no good and your plant will suffer, producing less yield, if it makes it.

[ZiroOne]

I got some questions bro. Stable pH for 7 days of what? A standing alone solution?

Between all acids, citric acid is worst for pH adjusting but I'm not saying it's bad on its own. How much do you usually use of it? It is carbon source for dioxygen consumer bacteris.Do you perform any water sterilisation. I wonder of pH stability with this acid. Plant absorbs citrate by releasing hydroxide which raises pH again.

Checking stability of nutrient solution over a course of days can be a good idea for finding a better initial pH if carbonates concentrations, alkalinity, is high as part of carbonates reactions, which can be found in must tap waters, occurs very slowly. But alkalinity can be estimated by amount of acids needed to lower pH. Generally The lower the EC, the lower the alkalinity. You know what? Growing doesn't need stable pH of stood alone solution. Initial pH of nutrient solutions containing low level of carbonates can be neglected.

I said i set pH to 6.2 before. Remember? But it is not totally true. I set the pH to 5.6 but it raises to 6.2 in 2 days because i use high level of potassium carbonate as a source of potassium. It keeps going higher but i don't care even if i know it reaches 6.8 in a week or so when i use low concentration of P during veg( phosphates are pH buffering agent)

[Bluey]

Stable pH in the nute tank.

I had to automate my grow as I was away from my plants for 5 or 6 days at a time because of work.

I have never needed much citric acid to get my pH in range. In my cloning bucket I use 1 to 2 drops per 24hr period in 6 litres of solution to maintain 5.8

In flower I always need to raise and use potassium carbonate. I use a bit of that.

In veg never more than 2 or 3 drops in 15 to 20 litres.

I use untreated rainwater and as you know it's pH varies a bit. I measured it last week at about 6.75 but know it can go quite a bit lower.

I had a problem in my tank with stability of the pH when I added a calmag suppliment. It didn't like my base nutes and the tank started to smell and the pH rose from 6.1 to over 7 in a week so I had to find another solution.

I test my solution over time regularly to make sure it stays stable. Currently I am not using the tank but mixing solutions daily in the veg cupboards and the flower room. The clone bucket is aerated which results in quickly rising pH but I correct it 3 times a day and change the solution weekly ZiroOne

[ZiroOne]

I don't know if your nutrient tank is in contact with plants or not.

Drops and a bit of that? Volume of acid or base solution without knowing its concentration is a useless information. I don't know How much is called a bit. Bit is not a number.

Forget all these. What was your calmag? What brand? pH goes up or down when it is used?

[Shneex0338]

Your pH problems are a combination of everything that you are using together inc water and medium.

I use citric acid straight from the source, a lemon tree, and have stable pH for more than 7 days. (I havent bothered to test longer duration as this is stable.) Some base nutes don't like citric acid, some base nutes prefer citric acid. Some additives or suppliments don't like citric acid either.

I did add a macro cal/mag suppliment last grow that caused the pH to run away so got rid of it and searched for one compatible with my base nutes. This was the problem that caused the quickly rising pH. I use rainwater which is similar to RO and measures 0 EC.

I don't use canna nutes because they cost more than double what I currently pay and don't do any better of a job.

Test the stability of your input pH over time. If it rises or falls quickly its no good and your plant will suffer, producing less yield, if it makes it.

As mentioned above, I did test it if that's what you mean.

"I just checked my second solution I made yesterday with 5.8PH, it's at 6.7PH after 12 hours." - Do you mean this? I'm sorry if it's hard to understand. I made a second batch of feed, PHed it at 5.8, and checked the PH after 12 hours again, and the PH was at 6.7 then.

And what do you mean by less yield? will a plant produce less in the end, even if it recovers 100% from all that damage? It's a photo so I thought any damage can be reverted, as long as you'll veg it into a bigger plant (which of course wastes time but whatever). I thought only autoflowers will be hurt permanently if mistakes happen in the veg state, as they flower by themselves?

[Bluey]

Yes to testing pH stability.

From what I can gather citric acid is not compatible with your canna nutes so ditch that.

Try another acid. There's a few out there and test again. Any instability of the feed mix will be replicated at the roots.

Photos should recover fine in veg but when in flower not so much. My problems occurred in flower and was one of the reasons yield was down and I had to harvest at day 65 of flower for my sativas, a tad earlier than I would have liked.

[Shneex0338]

I have General Hydroponics PH Down on the way already. After doing some research it should be the most basic user-friendly stuff for coco that'll keep the PH stable for longer. I hope this is actually the problem, as it'd be an easy fix then.

[Bluey]

What does your nute manufacturer recommend for pH down?

[Hdk40]

As a newbie to this one of the only things I wouldn’t do again on the next grow is use canna pro, way too hot it seems

[golfnrl]

Is your 1.1 EC the net? Your tap water is .4 leaving about .6 for nutrients. Does that fit in line with Coco Canna recommendations?