Weird Ph Question-Soil Run-off

[PaganRich]

Afternoon folks and hope everyone`s fine and dandy
Right, this hasn`t been an easy grow, black gnats, over-crowded leggy girls and strangely a winged bug that seems to have died when it tapped a trich neat....well, that`s one way to go I suppose...the gnats/ dead bug especially the dead bug now aren`t a problem and I am on top of all issues except this one weird thing which due to my limited knowledge has me truly perplexed. I`m organic and feed or water with compost teas and my ph in and out are usually within parametres (6-7). My girls are healthy and I attach a couple of pics to show Mind Can`trol and Gorilla Zkittlez and to me they look alright. The tap water comes out at a bog standard 7.6 every time. I add white vinegar to lower and then water. Recently the run off though has been over 7. Now compost tea brews and stabilizes around 7 naturally by all accounts and so run off for teas at that has not been an issue but recently I`ve been pushed for time and watered with adjusted plain water...and here`s the nub, water in is around 6.2 adjusted but coming out above 7 in a lot of instances. So, I dropped the ph to just below 6 to water and they still come out around 7 to 7.5 as run off. The ph pen`s fine and no issues with anything else. Mind Can`trol was watered in at 5.9 and run off at 6.8. Zkittlez 5.9 and out at 7.2. I`m wondering if the soil is stripping the vinegar from the water but that wouldn`t make sense as the vinegar has adjusted the ph prior so I`m right perplexed. As I said, girls are healthy, no nute probs and soil drains really well-biobizz light mix plus 30% added perlite.....any thoughts would be appreciated

[BaccaRacca]

What kind of soil are you using? If you mix it yourself, what is in the soil?

[PaganRich]

BaccaRacca Hi mate...Biobizz light mix with added perlite and grown with it for some yrs now and no issues and it seems to be just with plain water...thanks for reading mate

[Catfish22]

Add some buffer, such as calmag, maybe? I think there is an organic calmag now.

I use coco but following some of the soil growers here I've learned that soils lose different components at unspecified times towards the end of a grow. If your soil has been buffering your water perhaps the soil has begun to deplete its natural buffers. Just a WAG. 😐

[PaganRich]

Catfish22 Hey up Catfish...can`t use calmag mate as water is heavy in Calcium from the limestone it goes through and ph out of tap is 7.6 but the girls also look fine, leaves are healthy and a good colour green, everything seems okay, it`s just the numbers that are baffling me...stumped to put it mildly...thank you for getting back mate

[Catfish22]

I would say I agree with Mr.furley , I think this is one you'll have to finish just watching the plant. You have the experience, let her ride!
Happy farming! 🙂

[Mr.furley]

you are chasing fictional numbers, checking both ppms/ec and Ph of soil is inaccurate and will run you up a wall. To get a idea of soil ph a Slurry test is needed which is covered in this article.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/blog.hannainst.com/soil-ph-testing%3fhs_amp=true

Good to see you Rich! plants look good.

[PaganRich]

Mr.furley Hey up mate and thanks for above...I`ve not seen that before and that was incredibly useful to know. Versatile as well for starting up a pot, etc Very nice and thanks again

[azorahai]

AFAIK vinegar isn't a stable pH regulator, so even if you're watering with a slightly acidic solution your soil will eventually drift alkaline. A better pH regulator would be phosphoric acid, which is what is in most pH down solutions.

[PaganRich]

azorahai That was useful to know about the soil drift upwards mate as that may explain the readings I was getting...thank you mate, appreciated

[crucialbunny]

I run living soil and have found that chasing PH through runoff samples can often be inaccurate. I've gotten to the point where unless my plants are showing signs of distress I don't bother checking anymore. When I do test, I test the soil itself. If your enzymes and bacteria in the soil are heathy they will buffer and balance PH with no interference on your part. I don't know anything about the BioBizz you use so I can't comment on its effect. I should mention that I grow outdoors in containers so if you are indoors it could be a different story.

[PaganRich]

crucialbunny First, great name-like it. Compost teas naturally balance around ph7 I read so I`m wondering whether this has been going for some time or fairly recently...don`t know. My girls look fine, got another 6 on top with same going ons...they`re all looking fine...there`s nought wrong but as Mr.furley says and you, inaccuracy seems to be a major factor-appreciate the thoughts mate

[BaccaRacca]

Mr. Furley is spot-on for the flurry test. He's a trusted expert on prepared substrate.

If you are seeing a change, though, and you are wondering what is going on, the linked article below goes into it in depth. It's worth the time for a careful read or three.

A few basics they cover includes how prepared soil mixes lose their acidity over time as their acidic key materials -- usually peat moss, nitrogenated saw dust, and chipped bark -- degrade. Initially these acid materials are usually buffered with lime, limestone or other similar materials, including oyster shells, crab shells, etc (whatever is cheapest or looks good in marketing materials). Another thing to note is that how the buffer materials are prepared can affect how long the buffer is effective. For example finely ground limestone delivers a quick base punch, but it quickly loses its effectiveness.

In that regard, I noticed on the BioBizz site their guide for the mix you are using provides a guide for a twelve-week growth cycle. Maybe you are beyond that? They also recommend their own ph down product, which their website describes and citric acid based. Another common ph buffer. If you are looking to save a buck on that, you might look for less expensive stuff from garden supply stores.

Here's the link. Enjoy.

https://extension.uga.edu/publications/detail.html?number=B1256&title=Essential%20pH%20Management%20in%20Greenhouse%20Crops:%20pH%20and%20Plant%20Nutrition

[PaganRich]

BaccaRacca Firstly mate, that was incredibly decent of you to check the soil and link above and info-thank you mate. Also, I have a question for you, if you can-I`m growing in that soil right for 4 months but adding the microbes from the teas as well as organic feeds...would that still keep the soil as a healthy, viable option do you think? That perlite/ peat moss combo-mate,how long have you been growing like that and what are the pluses do you think?

[BaccaRacca]

@PaganRich, you're welcome. With prepared mixes, I think it's important to see what the manufacturer suggests. I do that as much for you, as to see what is going on out there for me.

As for your mix and the compost tea, I can't say outside of, "That's a good looking plant you've grown!" So something must be working for you. Also, remember what @Mr.furley has written above about runoff in his post above; your mix may actually have a lower ph.

Personally, I don't trust compost tea because I never know what good bugs and bad bugs are in there. There is some controversy regarding the stuff. I try to stay safely away from the controversy with a "don't bring the outdoors into the indoors" philosophy. And that brings us to the perlite/peat combo.

Thank you for your interest, mate.

I started with the mix 40 years ago, almost to the day. It was described in the 10th printing of the "Marijuana Grower's Guide" by Mel Frank and Ed Rosenthal in 1981. Back when I got my medical marijuana card for cannabis, my canni-doc sold me the latest copy, "Ed Rosenthal's Marijuana Grower's Handbook," printed in 2010. The method is still described in that latest edition.

Your question prompted a search for the old book. Notice the quality of bud considered cover art between then and now. We've learned so much more since then! Oh my.




I will point out -- as does the text of these books -- this has been a reliable way of container growing in American green houses and nurseries for many years. Hydroponics with a garden hose.

The two major advantages for commercial growers in my region is 1) that it easily adapts to high-ph hard water in the area, with the acid of the peat moss buffering the high ph tap water, and 2) the portability of the lightweight containers.

Once you find the right ratio of peat-to-perlite managing ph levels is a no-brainer as the plant's roots continuously seek out the "sweet spot" areas in the container mix. Here are photos from a recent clone planting into a 6-liter nursery pot.

I cover the holes with round patch of landscape cloth, fill the runoff area, approximately 5 cm with moistened perlite (moistening perlite keeps the dust down) to help seal the fabric edges to the side of the pot. I'll take 1 scoop of loosened Canadian peat moss and cover the perlite, then mix in 2 scoop of perlite with the layer of peat. After that two scoops of perlite, another 1 scoop of peat and two more scoops of perlite. I keep the mix rough so the roots can find their sweet spot. Then dig a hole in the moistened mix, place the plant, add a bit of dry mix.

This was completed on May 2, 2021



Here are the clones four days later, May 06:



You can also follow the link in my signature for more information about this technique.

I have found that I can mix too much peat into my mix, and had a small problem with it. Using a 75%/25% perlite/peat mix in my last Amnesia Trance grow, I noticed a severe nute lockout burn that occurred as the substrate dried -- instead of a mild, easy-to-recover-from wilt, I'd get completely bleached out spots and tips, plus stunted growth. I adjusted to 2x a day fertigation and the problem went away. I just did a test drying with my current mix with less peat and did not have the issue.

Overall, don't overdo the peat, and it's a cool way to save money and headaches for those with hard water.

If you would like to know more, feel free to write, mate. I'm also going to post a grow journal for my continuous grow very soon.

Thanks again for your interest, mate.


BR

[BaccaRacca]

azorahai, I, too, find it interesting that others are using this method. I wonder, what were your influences in using this substrate?

By 2/day, I really meant 2x a day. Thank you for catching that. I'll go back and correct it.

Once I saw the burn was associated with irrigation I theorized that once the ph sweet spot dried out, the roots would go searching for moisture in areas that were somewhat toxic. By preventing that level of drying out I kept the plants safe. Now I use a lower concentration of peat and don't have that problem.

Right now I hand water once a day. Mrs. Bacca Racca has been on me to automate. She points to the copper cold-water pipe that passes directly over the place where I mix my nutes, and the auto drip system I ordered and haven't used yet. Now that I have my continuous grow system in full grow mode (11 plants + cutting in clone soup), it's been taking more time and too many water jugs back and forth from the kitchen than she likes. First rainy day it looks like the queen of the castle will get what she wants, and I will be quite thankful she kicked me in the butt to get in done.

Plants in my 10-gallon pots can go two days without watering, but I don't like pressing it when the plants are in full grow.

As for runoff, I like to keep that to a minimum. I don't like a lot of runoff in my plant trays; eventually it grows algae. So I try to keep an idea of water consumption in my head, measuring off in half-liter increments. If I get too much standing water, then I'll drain it.

As I prepare to set up an automatic drip system I am keeping an even closer eye on runoff. I don't want to flood my cabinets and waste nutes. Nor do I want to risk system failure and dry out my crop.

I don't worry about salts buildup over time. My first grows in this type of substrate were made with milk crates lined with a plastic bag and no drainage. Never had problems. So I've never worried, with a couple of exceptions.

If I have any suspicion my nutes are off, I'll rinse the substrate, say five gallons rinse in my 10-gallons, and 3 gallon rinse in my 2.6 gallon pots.

With the Amnesia Trance grow and that burn problem, I did do a heavy rinse, on the three-gallon pots.

Also, with that grow, the transition from clear to cloudy to amber was much faster than expected. I spent the last week rinsing, but there was no time for molasses. I just did about 10 days of plain water, and it came out tasting really good. Flavor is not ATs strong suit, either. I did use Botanicare Raw flavor enhancer during flowering, however. I bought the stuff with tongue firmly in cheek wondering if the stuff really worked, or if the marketing team was leveraging my parental behavioral circuits and they were helping me feel good about giving my children cough syrup (which is what it smells like).

But, the flavor was better than previous attempts with that strain when I did not use the enhancer.

And just yesterday, after reading your question and taking a hit off some Blue Dream Nouveau (accidentally trimmed an early bud and slow dried it), I felt like I inhaled a blueberry muffin. It tasted so good I wanted to suck the exhaled first toke back in). Then I was so I, I went outside to my flower and vegetable gardens and contemplated life.

It took until now to answer your questions. I hope this helps.

[azorahai]

BaccaRacca tbh I started using peat moss because it was cheap and readily available in the grow shop where I picked up most of the other things. I've found it can hold so much water that I could easily let my ~3gal pots (under ~60% RH) unattended for almost a week without the plants wilting, which is excellent as I'm not interested in watering them every other day lol. In fact, I never water them, but rather fertilize them with enough nutrients to last the 4-6 days it takes for the medium to dry.
I'm already planning on buying a few water pumps and silicone tubing to make the whole process even easier. I'm thinking about leaving the pots in a slightly tilted container with a submersible pump at its lowest level, and when the plants need to be fertigated I can just hook up their dedicated tubing to another submersible pump and feed them enough solution to wash away any remaining salts in the medium, and then pump out the accumulated run-off with the other pump. We'll see how that works out.
Apparently that Botanicare Sweet Raw you mentioned is basically magnesium sulfate, i.e. epsom salt, which is part of my custom salt-based nutrient line-up. This will be (in about a week or so) my first harvest with this line-up, let's hope it's as sweet as yours turned out

[PaganRich]

BaccaRacca Firstly, that was a very interesting write up by you mate, never seen that take before and cheers a lot mate, that was really appreciated. Secondly, I`ve subscribed to your page so should hopefully pick up your grow journal so looking forward to seeing that in action and thirdly, just saw your medical update...both my dad and uncle had that...I`m 58 so don`t read any inference in that...and my thoughts are with you my friend...I wish you all the very best and look forward to
catching up with your future posts...all the best mate