The Shady Side of Legal Cannabis?

[Serapium]

Quick question that maybe someone here can help with. I met another grower here in Oklahoma today and the meeting left me feeling for the first time like maybe I'm not aware of the business climate that is likely to evolve post-legalization.

I was told that my sense of personal security and paranoia about conducting business is insufficient, despite this industry being legal in my State. I'm a new grower and as such am completely ignorant of what the previously-existing black market cannabis industry was like. Heck, I wasn't even a consumer so had no exposure to anyone involved.

Has anyone had meetings with people in the legalized cannabis industry that come from the illegal side and have carried the same philosophies of paranoia and caution into the legitimate business environment? If so, how did you deal with that? Is this something likely to endure in states where legalization is a fairly recent development? The meeting left me wondering if I should ratchet up my paranoia level.

Thanks for any advice or insight into how this has played out in other states over time.

[Rwise]

I'll drop this,, the black market was and is mostly overlooked unless you do to much, cause problems etc for the LEOs. What has changed in the black market is the Mexican is almost seedless now, and running $80 per oz, the cartels are going to fight to stay in business here.
The concern I would have is early on OMMA posted all growers addresses and names, I have the PDF. I would certainly want security cams everywhere! My thought here is not the FEDs you need worry with but the thieves!
Then the stats are getting better as to patient/grower/dispensary numbers. But I have heard estimates 75% of growers and dispensaries will go under in the first year,,
Good Luck to you!
Paranoia, I stopped looking over my shoulder long ago, though having my patient permit is a great load off the mind! As soon as I new I was approved I planted outside for all to see!

[Serapium]

ZigZag thank you for taking the time to provide your perspective. Oklahoma is very much like Oregon in that there are no limits on the number of growers that can obtain a license. There are currently 1,300+ and more added every week. The majority of those are people who live on agricultural land already and just threw up a 10x10 tent in their barn. The number doing what I am (full scale commercial) is much smaller, though there is no way to quantify the exact numbers. Also, Oklahoma is limited to indoor grow operations only, so the cost of entry for large scale operations is much higher than a state like Oregon where outdoor grows provide economies of scale that you simply cannot achieve when walls and environmental controls are required.

I'm absolutely on board with establishing those relationships you talk about early on, and plan on starting the rounds to dispensaries this coming week - well before I will have any product that is marketable. It's important though that those relationships are established early.

The vast majority of people getting into the grow game that I have come across are in it for the quick buck and seem to think that they can just throw up some HID lights, put some seeds in soil, and sit back to collect the cash. Most have no idea whatsoever what they're getting into. They don't understand pH, ppfd, VPD, etc and think their cannabis plants are just going to grow like... well, weeds. In addition, two of the three growers I have spoken with had never even heard of 280e tax law and don't have any kind of accounting in place. I would estimate that by this time next year the number of license holders who have chosen to renew their annual $2,500 license for the following year will be greatly reduced. I wouldn't be surprised to see an 80% fallout rate or better.

For us, we're focusing on quality as opposed to quantity. I fully anticipate that there will be an absolute glut of low quality larfy buds available at bargain basement prices by May or so of this year. The going price currently for sales from cultivators to dispensaries is over $4,000 a pound but that is totally due to lack of supply and will change dramatically as more harvests come online. We were among the first to get rolling in Oklahoma but won't have properly cured medical cannabis to take to market until March. Product that we do take to dispensaries will be nothing but top shelf. This is the only way that we will be able to stay in the portion of the market where there is some price support.

I'm starting to see some real indications on a national/international level that federal legalization is likely not very far around the corner. Take for instance the fact that three Washington insiders, including Howard Dean (ex DNC Chair) and Michael Steele (ex RNC Chair) have been appointed to the board of advisors for Canada's largest cannabis cultivator Tilray (which happens to be majority owned by Silicon Valley Billionaire Peter Thiel). I'm hoping that won't happen for a little while, actually, so that I have time to get my legs underneath me and establish a brand. The game is definitely afoot though. Big money sees the dollars and wants a piece.

[ZigZag]

Rwise, sorry to hear thats how it came about in Oklahoma. Lucky for me I haven't had those experiences. Hope things improves down there in the long run.

[ZigZag]

seraplum, It sounds like its going to take a while for things to "shake out" in Oklahoma. There was a "gold rush" in Oregon too but most of the smaller scale commercial growers started out with limited resources and were looking at growing as a way of life rather than making a fast $. Things are starting to settle out there but there's a ways to go before that happens. People have lost a lot of money because they weren't well enough prepared to get through their first 2-3 grows before they began to make some of their investment back. I just hope the craft growers can continue to make it and compete against the big growers.The industry as a hole needs people with ethics and objectives such as yours. Cheers to a productive and professionally satisfying future!

[starramus]

legal in my view is a relative term. just because the gangster state has decided to join in for their piece of the action doesn't make it any more "legal". sometimes i feel calling a "criminal" is a safer option than calling those who are supposed to serve and protect. these stereotypical labels do not get to the root of who are the good and the bad guys.

[ZigZag]

Don't get caught up in worrying about competition with the black market. Your state will get more involved with that to protect their own interests once things get moving and they see how much $ there is in it for them. As a commercial grower you need to get together with all the other permitted growers in your state and form a coalition that will protect your investments in the industry. I can't stress this enough,
I know I'm "beating this over the head" but if you want to succeed now and in the future then don't neglect this aspect. If you haven't yet there are commercial growers conferences all over in different states and countries throughout the year where everyone gets together and brings all their concerns to light. I go to the Cannabis Classic every Spring in Portland,Oregon. Its great way to meet folks and keep on top of whats happening. Check it out in 2019!

[Serapium]

ZigZag thanks again. We haven't been to any conferences yet, but do plan on getting to some this year. I'm really only about 6 weeks into full operational mode so still very new. Planning has been happening for many months, but it took a while to get the ball rolling down the hill. There are some nascent organizations trying to coalesce here in Oklahoma. We haven't joined one yet as I want to wait and see which bubbles to the top before jumping in, but we will be very active participants. EDIT: I'm not so much concerned with competition with the Black Market as I am with safety FROM the black market. The guy I met the other day who came from the black market side and is now a licensed grower tried very hard to put the fear of god into me.

[ZigZag]

seraplum_ ohhh. that would have gotten me wondering too. I guess I might be more concerned if I were much closer to the cartels and smugglers. But up here we don't have much of that going on. The black market for cannabis up here is so small those involved in it wouldn't dare try to mess with the rest of us_ it just wouldn't be worth the effort!

[oldjarhead100]

I would imagine that any legal grower is going to bad talk small growers so they will stop. I know in Mass they charge ridicules fees to apply to grow for dispensaries so the individual is out in the cold as far as growing legally to sell to dispensaries

[Rwise]

On top of all the other fees, just the states license for a grow facility is $2500 per year!

[Serapium]

One of the things that I appreciate the most about the way that Oklahoma has legalized medical cannabis is that they didn't make it so that you had to already be part of the club to join. Yes, the license is $2,500 and that's not chump change, but if you can't fund a grow sufficiently you won't be able to compete and stay alive. The cost of getting a full grow up and running is way, way more than the $2,500 cost of entry. I know that other states have limited the number of growers they license (I think Ohio let in just 16?) and that some of them are charging upwards of $100,000 just to get a license, so all in all Oklahoma is probably the easiest state to get licensed in anywhere. There are somewhere in excess of 1,200 licensed growers here now and that number keeps rising. I hope I didn't give the impression that I was bad talking about another grower because that was not my intention. His facility was clean and his plants were very healthy. He was just obviously stuck in a mindset that he's been conditioned into for many years and I didn't quite know how to interface with that.

[ZigZag]

It sounds like Oklahoma is possibly getting itself into a similar situation as Oregon. I know it sounds crazy but I hope not. Like you said $2500 for a license is nothing compared to what you need to invest in a commercial grow operation. A drop in the bucket for sure. If there are 1200 licensed commercial growers (not counting medical users who just grow their own) then there are already too many and a good percentage will fail, unless they have the funding to persevere for a few years at least and/or already have developed a clientele that buys their products on a regular basis. One of the recent strategies is to not only grow cannabis, but to dry, cure, package, produce flower, their own extracts, edibles, topicals, gel tabs, etc.and sell them in their own dispensaries. Don't get me wrong_ I'm all for supporting the smaller family owned operation_ in fact thats exactly what you need to get your state to protect_ the small guy.
Consider where beer was 30 years ago...not much to choose from compared to these days where there's a huge selection of domestic craft beers to tempt you...those craft beer producers have made significant impacts on their local economies and small craft cannabis growers can achieve the same results_ but they must work together.
None of the commercial growers I know have any grief about what we do with our home grows. We really don't present any competition with them.
We can grow flower, make hash and some other extracts fairly easily but there's a lot we can't do unless we're willing to spend a fortune on equipment.
And most states where it is legal to grow your own limit you to a small and specific number of plants.
When I look in my grow space with 6 plants and then at a full 5000 sq foot grow room/greenhouse...that really puts things in perspective!

[alltatup]

As others have pointed out, let the buyer beware. There are a lot of shadey people jumping on the cannabusiness wagon: I just read about a testing lab that got shut down for falsifying results (not telling us about the pesticides):

https://www.sacbee.com/news/state/california/california-weed/article222666355.html

I would be more prone to believe that more of the "legal" side is shadey than not--kinda like any big business that wants to bleed people for the most it can get. I stick with the business that are in it for the love of Cannabis--not the dollar bills.

[ZigZag]

I'll second that alltatup_ support the small family owned operations if you buy commercial. They are the ones who put love into their crops. When the big tobacco companies get into it ...boycott them!!!_they need to be put in there place. Buy craft cannabis from those who care enough to grow green and clean!

[alltatup]

And not just cannabis: I refer to all Cannabis-related businesses, which are popping up everywhere like weeds. I won't fk with a website that doesn't come right out and say who founded it and who they are. I won't buy products from companies that appear just to be grabbing money hand over fist. For example, I really like KorLor420 (silk rosin bags) because of this policy:
"And check this out! It is a policy of KorLor420 that the majority of our team are these fantastic individuals that may have (probably) had a hard time finding a job. Like Vets, DV victims, autistic, down syndrome or down on my luck from every walk of life etc.. Our rule is to hire 75% of our employees from the mentioned groups. We offer an environment where they can thrive, instead being in constant fear of losing their job."

It's attitudes and intentions like KorLor's that will keep me coming back.

[LurkingInTheGrass]

@alltatup

do you have a list of those types of companies? willing to share? or a link?

looking at http://www.korlor420.com now

I will be starting Oil Extractions in the next couple of months, and these bags look perfect. TY
sounds like the kind of business, I would rather support with my $$

[ZigZag]

seraplum_ you're right on track_ keep your perspective and don't get sidetracked. Keep going, keep growing and here's wishing you all the success you've dreamed of!

[Rwise]

Serapium I have a question, with the feds legalizing the growth of hemp, how does this effect us here? I have read in other states growers have turned to hemp (for CBD oil) to keep their heads above water when the prices bottom out.

[Serapium]

Rwise see my comments above regarding federal legalization. I don't anticipate the legalization of hemp to impact the medical cannabis market very much, but federal legalization is lurking in the wings and that will change the whole ball of wax.

[ZigZag]

I agree with seraphim_ I don't think the market for hemp will impact the market for medical. Unless you include THC free CBD products. But even then a commercial grower i know who has been doing medical for almost 12 years and recreational for about the last three are now growing hemp as well. They specialize in High CBD strains_ many in the 5-15% range and THC in the 5-20% range. These crops are sold as flower to dispensaries and to others in bulk who make extracts, edibles and topicals for retail sale. These CBD/THC cannabis strains are preferred by producers that care because they have terpene profiles that hemp can't provide. The THC also works with the CBD to "complete" it.
Their hemp is going to go to a buyer who is going to use it to make CBD only products and then get this_clothing!
I have no idea whats happening in Oklahoma with hemp but in Oregon hemp fields don't need to be enclosed, fenced and monitored with security cameras. Just the crops that contain THC need to be tossed off to public access.
Once the huge commercial hemp farms in South America and Canada get into full production then I wouldn't want to be trying to make a go at the unregulated CBD only market_ the competition will be overwhelming.
Sticking to the THC/CBD strains will be a safer bet !

[alltatup]

LurkingInTheGrass I'm learning as I go. For example, the supercloset grow box I bought a couple of years ago was a total piece of shit and a waste of a thousand bucks: supercloset.com I should have known it wouldn't be good when I talked to the guy on the phone that I knew waaaay more about growing cannabis than he did. He sounded like a wind up doll saying all the platitudes we already know. But they put their own ad up in High Times saying how great they were, and I didn't realize that it wasn't a High Times review: it was just grab the money and let them toot their own horn. So I avoid High Times now.

I recently had a weird experience talking to the guy in charge of 02grow ("nanobubble technology") who tried to pressure me to buy now before the prices went up in 2019. Of course, this convinced me not to think about the product anymore. A real sleazoid.

Businesses I trust:
ardentcannabis.com
https://www.omega.com/pptst/PHA4_7_10.html?bt=cart This is where I buy my pH calibration solution by the gallon: much cheaper and a high quality product.

http://www.extractcraft.com

Future Harvest nutrients

Online sources of information: in the past two years, they have grown like a bad case of root rot. I don't trust a lot of them, like I avoid Leafly altogether, as well as websites with tons of pop up adds, bells and whistles. Google can go fk itself. Sites I like and have learned a lot from:

bigbudsmag.com

https://www.projectcbd.org

wakeandbake.com This woman taught me all I know about tinctures.
https://extractcrafter.com Ichiban taught me all I know about making concentrates.
https://cannasos.com/strains The place I usually go to read about strains; it's better than most about telling you where the strains come from geographically.
http://profofpot.com This guy knows his stuff, if you have the scientific interests.

[alltatup]

ZigZag I got the Source by Extractcraft last May, I think, and I love this machine because it reclaims the alcohol. I was getting embarassed about going into the liquor store for so much Everclear 190 ;-}
It also has versatility: I can make all kinds of concentrates. The buchner filter is the key to getting a vapeable concentrate; otherwise, it makes a fabulous strong tincture after I reduce the alcohol.

Here's the sap I made for my vape pen:

https://forum.growweedeasy.com/forum/growing-community/268943-making-cannabis-sap-from-trim

Let me know if you have questions.

[ZigZag]

Alltatup_ thank you, I'm very likely going to try that out..my main issue is that I like to use a 1:1 product most of the time. I have seizures once in a while and take pharm meds for it but don't like the side effects. For my body weight I need a lot more CBD than I can get from high THC strains. I've read a lot of what research efforts have discovered and for seizures and lots of other ailments CBD combined with THC seems to work best. The synergistic effect of both working together and extracts made from whole plant (not pharma derived products made in a lab) are most effective. They also have fewer drug interactions , such as with very high levels of CBD- like 1500-2000mgs/day. These levels of CBD (surprising when you consider all the hype about CBD derived from hemp) can slow down the metabolism of the other drugs making them less effective.
Anyway, I need a lot higher doses than I can afford from a dispensary_ it'd cost me $100's/day. So I grow my own and make my own concentrates and making that easier and more effective frees up a lot of time. Partly why I like the Advent so much. So thank you very much! Your advise has been really great.One thing I've been wishing for is a way to make an extract that could be used in a vape pen_I do enjoy the different "flavors" from different strains and they are most evident in vaporized form at the lowest temp possible. Even the 1:1 gets me plenty high at the doses I need but the cbd keeps a lid on that to some extent! Also seems to work at reducing inflammation and basic bodily aches and pains_ not a bad side effect too. Cheers and I'll most definitely be sharing and asking in the days to come!

[alltatup]

ZigZag The Source is a great machine for making meds, fo sho!!! If you looked at that thread on the sap, you see that it's completely possible to make vapeable concentrates; you just gotta have the buchner to remove all the plant matter. I tried a few times before I got the buchner, and what came out was RSO or Full Extract Cannabis Oil (FECO), which is not vapeable.

Another thing you can do if you need to add CBD: get the CBD slab or powder (cbdistillery is where i got mine): it of course infuses in alcohol and stores indefinitely in the freezer. Last year I made a tincture with about 14 grams of CBD, and it's still sitting in the freezer so I can take it out and add some to whatever Cannabis tincture I'm making. Then of course, you remove the alcohol and voila! You've customized your sap by adding the CBD. https://extractcrafter.com/
This guy taught me just about everything I know about concentrates.

[starramus]

Hey Oliver come back and explain yourself!

[buffalobuds]

What everyone said above all make sense,It will likely take 10 yrs. for the growers,sellers,products and consumers to level out and become a stable industry. You also know the big pill companies are not sitting on thier fat wallets,You KNOW they will come up with a bigger and better THC pill(F--K them!!) This is all good. Just may take time to smooth out the bumps The last 3 yrs prohabition has come a long way from 40 yrs ago.

[ZigZag]

Yeah, I'm hoping Big Pharma doesn't get too serious...recent research has indicated that the effectiveness of CBD and or THC are most effective when combined together. The ratios of cannabinoids and terpenes and levels of consumption for effective doses can vary a lot between consumers/patients. So its more a personal choice. And plant derived products are more effective than ones produced in a lab.
Hopefully this will keep an open window for craft growers because big parma doesn't like to get into something that takes too much effort to produce. Simple and mass produced seems to be their thing and even the newest FDA approved epilepsy drug is very expensive too with limited production...(mostly because it is derived directly from the plant to provide the additional effects provided by terpenes and other cannabiniods_ I have no idea what strain they are using and in their process they also lose some of the cannabinoids and terpenes that otherwise would be present). Basically I can make my own at much less cost...but a lot more work as well_ good thing I love doing this as a hobby...Some of this may start to settle out after a few years...after the Canadian firms now producing all kinds of bio/pharma products have had a chance to get their stuff out on the market long enough to see how receptive it is. Fingers crossed... Cheers!

[Rwise]

I meet another grower yesterday, in our chat seeds came up. It seems that questions are being ask about where we/you got your seed and may need to prove genetics, save those records! (His backer put up 85 acres and $2,000,000.00 to get started) And dont forget they said "Made in Oklahoma",,, so could there be another agenda behind this? I mean if those seed crossed a state line,,,, as mine did, then what?

[Serapium]

Rwise I have it on fairly good authority that the OMMA/OBNDD are going to turn a blind eye to how the genetics originally arrived in Oklahoma. They're not ignorant of the fact that in order for the industry to get going it will have to be fed through grey channels at first in order to establish a diverse range of genetics here in Oklahoma. One of the head honchos of OMMA is on record from a town hall meeting or something where he was asked about how growers are supposed to get the genetic material to start with and his answer was to cover his eyes and ears. Said they didn't really want to know, but to be aware that seed to sale tacking requirements are coming and that at that time all genetics would have to be proven to have originated in Oklahoma.

[ZigZag]

Hopefully your "watch dogs" in Oklahoma will adopt the same attitude as Oregon and Washington. Their governors told the police and TSA to not hassle anyone transporting cannabis products over the Oregon/Washington border or even in the Seattle or Portland airports (long as it was an ounce or less). They couldn't give a heck about seeds. I travel through there pretty often and on occasion have had edibles in my carryon no problem. But usually I try to avoid that because I can buy legal anywhere on the west coast. Best wishes to all you folks in Oklahoma, cheers.

[Rwise]

Seraplium, that's the hope that they will overlook getting started, and of course the feds drop their BS laws so we can have a true open market!

[alltatup]

I reckon I'm a bit of a conspiracy theorist: I see Big Pharma, conservative MDs, the lobbyists and therefore the govt. all highly invested in maintaining the status quo which they are all staying rich off of. (And I include Phast Phood in there as a definite part of the conspiracy.) It's just too obvious that Cannabis was illegalized in order to protect vested interests. What has all this resulted in?

From the CDC website: "From 1999 to 2017, almost 218,000 people died in the United States from overdoses related to prescription opioids. Overdose deaths involving prescription opioids were five times higher in 2017 than in 1999." In 2017 there were over 70 thousand deaths: that's one third of all the deaths since 1999. So ya think this country's in crisis? Drrrrrrrrr...

In my humble view of how stuff works in the USA, all this just shows how ethically fked up this country really is. None of the above-mentioned groups cares a lick about the health of the populace. I live in a sociopathic culture that only cares about money. A big reason why I use Cannabis every day to keep my mind right and my game tight...

[Rwise]

And they want to make something even stronger then fentanyl, and IMHO that would only be for junkies!
Conspiracy, well Big Pharma feed us phenobarbital as infants so we would be addicted for life,,
At the Dr's office;
Me; Dr my kids cannot have phenobarbital!
Dr; If you give them this "YOU" can sleep.
Me; Doc, I am a parent, I dont need sleep!
We talked further about how I think it causes life long addictions, I went away with a script for a non narcotic med!

[ZigZag]

alltatup_ that just about sums it up for me!

[alltatup]

Rwise I didn't know about the phenobarbital! But there are countless stories about big pharma releasing drugs that weren't properly tested or that they knew wouldn't work well for everyone; I kinda see them like Nazi scientists doing experiments on concentration camp inmates...

[starramus]

"I see Big Pharma, conservative MDs, the lobbyists and therefore the govt. all highly invested in maintaining the status quo which they are all staying rich off of." Parasites of a feather they flock together!

You mean you don't eat at the McMaggot? I donl't either. That shit will kill you! I was reading an article about the raising of the hogs used in the McRib. The HORROR! The HORROR! This isn't it, but close. https://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...pplier/247779/

[alltatup]

"The horror" is right: I won't read that cuz it's all too heart-breaking. Fart of Darkness.

[9fingerleafs]

I’m not sure this is the place to throw this into but. Have you guys seen “murder mountain” in Netflix? Definitely worth a watch, it’s the story of Humboldt county and the people that started the cannabis cultivation culture.

[Serapium]

9fingerleafs sounds interesting, and may give some insight into my original question in this thread. I'll check it out!

[9fingerleafs]

It does I didn’t say anything so I don’t spoil it but that’s why I mentioned it

[alltatup]

I'll check it out today.