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WW XTRM from AMS - First Grow

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    WW XTRM from AMS - First Grow

    Hi everyone!
    25 year fan, 1st time grower. As you will see, when I commit to something, I go all in. I want to learn to grow Cup-like stuff.
    These are actually 4 plants, 2 strains. (2) WW XTRM from AMS (left side), and (2) of their 'Regular' WW (right side).
    I'm in week 6 of flower on these girls and I'm very impressed so far. But the past week, I started seeing what appears to be red rust spots (pics attached). At first, my experienced friend said it was Ca and/or Mg deficiency, so I increased calmag slightly. But after further reading, I'm wondering now if the issue is related to wind burn (fan was pointed at the affected tops, and only tops seem to be impacted), heat stress (only 8-12" from Kind LED K3 – L300 Grow Light), and/or a combo of those and low humidity. Although all 4 RH modules in the small grow space read right about 50%, that dehumidifier is pulling 35-45 pints a day. There is a ton of foliage and you wouldn't know, but I defoliated the ever loving crap out of these plants - the genetics just pump out so much vegetation it's crazy - it's still blocking tons of bud sites and I'm tucking fan leaves every day.
    You can see cupping in some of the leaves in some pics -> heat. Whenever I to a res change the water temp jumps from 68 to 74 (room temp), and then slowly drops back down. Would warm roots cause the cupping too or just warm air temp?

    Air temp inside the closet never reaches past 78. If I lower the A/C another 2 degrees (Res 66, Air 75), would that help? Or, should I be super-cropping? Or, should I reduce my lighting for the last 3-4 weeks to 11/13 or 10/14? Can I try LSTing the affected tops away from the light?

    Some Quick Facts:
    This is a closet grow 2x2x4
    Good ventilation
    Dedicated, portable A/C, Humidifier and Dehumidifier to keep RH & Temp where I want them
    RO Water
    pH and temp probes (connected to my fish tank controller so I get real time and log info)
    Using Technaflora nutrients - started at 1/4 strength, now I'm at about 70% full (900-1000ppm) in week 6 of Flower.
    pH 5.5 - 6.2 (usually high 5's)

    If you see anything worth noting in the pics, please share. I'm a noob, asking for criticism. Any advice or help are much appreciated.

    Welcome adk10000

    Love it when growers jump in with both feet!

    Heat issues with the leaves are from the air. The problems with warm water are low oxygen and potential bacteria -> Root rot.

    It does look like heat and or high PPM is making the plants struggle to get adequate water, which is leading to the symptoms. Heat isn't the issue if those temps are accurate and taken at canopy level. The problem is high EC/PPM. May be because absolute numbers are too high (you are certainly pushing it) or because you moved up in PPM too fast.

    Lowering PPM will make it easier for the plant to get water and should ease the cupping
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    Coco/LED 6 Manifolds Grow #2 Harvest 407 grams = 14.5oz June 2018
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      Thanks for the feedback. I just did a res change yesterday. The old water/mix was at 1050ppm when I took it out (I had been topping off with original strength mix), and the new mix going in was 910ppm. It's still cupping a bit today.
      Are the red rust spots related? Any idea what's going on there?

      Should i flush with ro ph'd water for any period if time, or just remove half the res and dilute by half.

      I just put a hobo in last night, so i will be able to post the graphs it generates for rh and temp.


      • Campesino
        Campesino commented
        Editing a comment
        I think it must have to do with the clean out. It is starting to make more sense - you rinse the roots during clean-outs? Something is stripping the salts and I am thinking it is the rinsed roots. So I guess there could be a way for the plant to strip that much salt.
        Also, that would fit with healthier more vigorous plants having a more noticeable impact. But this theory falls apart if you leave the roots alone during clean outs.

        The second pattern of rising EC is the more normal pattern, and it actually seems to be the dominant pattern in your grow too.

      • RosettaStoned
        RosettaStoned commented
        Editing a comment
        No rinsing, just drain and put in new bucket.
        Yes, for the most part it's the "normal" way but during the those 6 first weeks it hard to tell what I'll actually need

      • RosettaStoned
        RosettaStoned commented
        Editing a comment
        My comment below reminds me that I do kinda flush my res when in a net. But that's still not the roots, just to dilute what couldn't be pumped out. Right now it's just bucket changes.

        I just did a change the other night and at week six, ec 1670, went down to 1423 the next day but barely any water missing. We'll see what it is tonight

      Great answer Campesino - Great looking plants adk10000
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        Thanks so much. I do keep records, and when I put all the numbers together in a summary, your hypothesis seems like you hit the nail on the head.
        Started 12/12 on 6/1/18. I thought that the increased flower was taking the increased nutrients, guess not!
        First symptoms were noticed around 7/2.
        You think 500 is a good target?
        What can I expect to see (or not see) in terms of recovery.
        Thanks again!
        5/5/2018 275
        5/12/2018 355
        5/19/2018 303
        5/24/2018 580
        5/28/2018 395
        6/2/2018 493
        6/5/2018 500
        6/12/2018 887
        6/24/2018 998
        7/4/2018 933
        7/11/2018 919


          PPM tested just now at 1080, following a 919 ppm res change yesterday. I replaced at least half of the volume with RO. ppm says 710, but I think it needs a little more time to mix, and may come down a bit more.
          Last edited by adk10000; 07-12-2018, 11:36 PM.


          • Campesino
            Campesino commented
            Editing a comment
            Yes, data confirms my diagnosis so far. And you seem to be taking the right actions.

            Ideally you want to keep the EC consistent. (EC and PPM are the same basic thing)
            Set a PPM target and top-off the tank to maintain that target. Based on this experience, I think that low 700s is a reasonable target.

          It may be poor AIR CIRCULATION.
          How many fans do you have in there? Cause I only see one small USB fan in the picture.
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          They have a similar look today. Topped off with just ph'd ro water. They took close to 2 gallons. They also seem to be a bit less sticky today. Is that possible? Does it make sense? Doesn't sound good....

          Click image for larger version  Name:	IMG_20180713_095452.jpg Views:	1 Size:	3.39 MB ID:	226119
          Last edited by adk10000; 07-13-2018, 10:56 PM.


          • Campesino
            Campesino commented
            Editing a comment
            What is the EC/PPM running now?

            When was the last time you did a complete clean-out?

          ppm is 604.
          Last total clean out was 6/5, but given current growth, because of the way the DWC and trellis are set up, I can't really take it all apart until after harvest without potentially risking root trauma. I already have a new DWC design that I'm working on...
          pH is 5.44. The majority of my research has said to keep hydro ph 5.5 to 6.5. I recently read that 5.2 to 6.2 is ideal. So, I'm not going to make an adjustment from 5.44, but what do you consider the proper range?


          • Campesino
            Campesino commented
            Editing a comment
            The inability to do clean-outs is going to cause problems with nutrition and potentially bacteria.
            The nutrition problems are probably causing some of the symptoms - along with EC.

            5.5 is usually the lowest recommended because pH can drift. I have not seen the range 5.2-6.2 recommended for DWC. I have seen mention that 5.86 is the ideal average, but you always have to let it drift around a bit.

            With pH that low, you have to be concerned with the solubility of Ca and Mg. They will be largely rendered unavailable at that level.

          First day of temp/rh logging. Looks like 65-67 degrees at night, 75-78 during day. Not sure what the RH spikes are. I would guess that maybe when I opened the cabinet, but this is happening at night when the cabinet is most definitely closed. Do the plants transpire more at night? It will be interesting to see the patterns develop. This Hobo is pretty cool.


            Here is the past week of pH and water temp
            Attached Files


              pH this morning is now down to 5.3.
              FYI, I have been using hydroguard for the entire grow.
              As you suggested, I'm going to do my best to deep clean the res and do fresh mix at 50% strength - target 500ppm. Will post back.
              Thanks again!


                Did res change again this morning. I was able to get virtually all of the water out, to make a more complete water change than usual. In the past, I didn't tilt the res back to allow the pump to remove the most possible.
                Fresh mix is in at 493ppm, and pH is 5.62
                Any suggestions on threads for DWC design ideas? I learned a ton already from intergalactic_harvester in the Number 2: Kosher Kush DWC thread.


                • Campesino
                  Campesino commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Saw comment above, and yeah this is the explanation I was looking for. If the water that you can't get out of the tank is diluted then it will lower the EC on the first fill.

                  I'm happy when the laws of physics work like they should!

                • RosettaStoned
                  RosettaStoned commented
                  Editing a comment
                  It takes a gallon to dilute 300 ec and I certainly do t leave that in there, maybe a cup...maybe. besides I take numbers after I fill the buckets back up. Still doesnt explain when i just change buckets though. Campesino

                • adk10000
                  adk10000 commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Good tip. I will definitely try that next time. Thx

                So pH began dropping rather quickly, I have topped off with RO & pH Up. You can see in the attached pic, that the pH tends to drop between top offs. I found that when the ppm was higher, that pH tended to be much more stable.Does this indicate if they are taking more nutrients vs water or vice-versa??
                ppm is now about 400
                I also noted what looks like minor bleaching of a few of the tops that are directly under the lights. Does this indicate that the leaf cupping may actually be heat related?
                Attached Files


                • Campesino
                  Campesino commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Yes, pH swings more when there is less stuff in the water.

                  I am confused about what your exact goals/plans are. You were running over 1000 PPM, which caused problems and I thought you were shooting to lower that to low 700s, which seemed very reasonable. Have you lowered your PPM target even more?

                  During Ripen week (the last week of nutrients) it is important to lower the PPM, so maybe this is what you are doing? Otherwise, you are now under your target PPM.

                  I apologize if my lack of clarity contributed to confusion. I will try to make my opinion clear

                  1. You should always have a PPM or EC target for the tank.
                  2. When you top off, you should test the tank first and determine how dilute the top-off water should be. It seems like just RO water is too low.
                  3. Add "top-off" water to maintain a consistent PPM
                  4. Periodically (weekly) do as thorough a cleaning as possible.

                Thanks again for the insight.
                So I topped off again with some nutes to bring ppm back to 500.
                i also ordered the blue labs connect so I can really dial in and track ppm. Should I push it back up to 700 ppm?


                • Campesino
                  Campesino commented
                  Editing a comment
                  I would suggest at least 600 PPM until the ripen week (I still think low 700s is your sweet spot). However, I don't know how much longer you think you have to go. During ripen week it should drop to around 500. So, if you are very close to ripen week, you should probably leave it where it is.

                  The timing of ripen week is not an exact science. It is the last week or so before you flush.

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