Nute differential between strains?

[BaccaRacca]

(NOTE ON BRAND USAGE: Prior to legalization, my stealth strategy meant all I ever used was off-the-shelf home center lighting, garden center fertilizer and landscape supply catalog grow media and containers. My flower, fruit, herb, and vegetable gardening covered for my cannabis grows. I learned to read labels, peer-reviewed research, mix nutes and prepare my own grow media in order to find out what worked for me. It works to the point that most grows bore me. The side benefit is this saves me a lot of money. I am not an agent for Scotts Miracle Gro.)

Ever experience it?

I'd wondered for years; after all, turf grass hybrids have varying nitrogen needs, so why not pot? After nearly 50 years of closeted, secret growth, I never varied from my nute soup mix between plants. Until my latest grow.

The Blue Dream I received from AMS just looked nasty yellow for a while. Really looked like a nitrogen deficiency. At the same time, a younger GG #4 I planted a few weeks later was going gangbusters -- same medium, same nutes. So I did a search and learned that Blue Dream was a nitrogen hog while the GG #4 really didn't need a lot of nutes. OK.

So I boosted my nitrogen. I went from 100% Miracle Gro Vegetables & Herbs WS (18-18-21) to 50% Miracle Gro Vegetables & Herbs and 50% Miracle Gro All-Purpose WS (24-8-16) to give me a 21-13-18 blend. Both plants responded immediately. The Blue Dream went gangbusters and the GG#4 started showing signs of nute burn.

It created a situation where I needed two different nute mixes for veg stage. First time ever. I had been keeping three nute buckets: veg, flower, and finish. Now it looks like I'm going to need to diversify a bit more.

Have you experienced this? If so, how did you (do you) handle it?

<SCROLL DOWN TO SEE WHAT HAPPENED !>

BR

[bboyfromwayback]

This is one of the reasons I’ve never tried hydro. We like variety around here. I use the same FF Trio feeding schedule for all strains then if one starts to show issues and the others aren’t I can adjust accordingly for that plant. You couldn’t do that in hydro unless every plant had its own reservoir which would be more equipment, more work ect

[BaccaRacca]

Technically, soilless mixes are hydroponics, just not DWC. It allows me the freedom to adjust. I have hard water here, ph around 8.0, with enough solids I could almost sell my tap water as cal-mag . I use Canadian peat moss, which has a ph in the 3.0-4.5 range. I use only enough peat to buffer the alkali of my tap water and the roots find the "just right" zone, saving me ph monitor work. That leaves me suspecting nutes most times.

[DeadlyFruit]

I’ve noticed it happening and compensated to a certain extent but I am not as far down the path as you are. I still try to find one mix, adjusting for all plants at once. Sometimes that works better than others. It’s one of the reasons why I am starting to grow fewer strains at one time.

[BaccaRacca]

I'm not all that far, DeadlyFruit, I just read labels and look up ingredients on the web. Eventually something sinks in. This all started when I was figuring my lawn fertilizer requirements for the year. I grow three different mixes of bluegrasses -- one is a low-cut mix for athletic fields and golf fairways that is a real nitrogen hog; a dense, dark-blue "luxury" blend that will thatch up fast if I feed it like the athletic field, and a shade mix that doesn't take much at all. So I wondered if the grass in my lawn takes different nutes, what about the "grass" in my basement?

[DaGreenBlazer]

Yo dude, this is something I've been thinking about recently too, as a Barney's Farm Blue Cheese I'm currently doing pretty much quit growing at day 38 of flower and instantly went proper autumnal yellow like it was finished - I've continued on same feeding schedule, as this grow I'm using whole new nute brand anyway, so i thought no point fuzzing up the results with me guessing, and I'm intrigued just to see what happens anyway. If i have it happen on future grows, then yeah i was already decided i was gonna start tailoring feed to that strain.

Plus 2 other things with mine is the new bloom nute I'm using is high in N already and i did notice burn on my 3 other strains (which are all flourishing fine otherwise and i backed off the bloom feeding on them), so i was unsure why if Blue Cheese was a N hog it wasn't lapping it up, plus secondly the maddest thing was growth didn't just slow, it literally froze! From day 38 to day 55 today, there has been literally 2 new tiny pistils on 1 bottom bud and that's it! It's drinking as normal and still alive fine but just frozen in time! Trics are still mostly clear/fair few cloudy/no real ambers so overall i suspect mostly mines just genetics, as on a side note, I've read varying reports about Barney's Farm seed quality.

Though to get back to your original point, alot of professional/commercial growers that I've seen stuff about do always have separate nutrient mixes tailored to each strain - although it seemed N was pretty much the main variable in most different mixes, and the second most common adjustments often related to the various PK booster elements in late stage - beyond that, from what i saw, the levels of most other nutes seemed to stay the same, and any adjustments to those was more based on when in the schedule they wanted it, rather than adjusting actual amounts given per mix.

It is an interesting subject though, and i have always been surprised that seedhouses don't seem to publish recommended detailed feed schedules for each strain they sell, as it would be a real help, and certainly be alot less guesswork than trying to work off the back of a bottle from a totally separate manufacturer!

[DeadlyFruit]

It’s funny you say that about Barney’s, I have been thinking the same thing. I can’t decide if I love them or hate them. They have supplied the seeds for my biggest successes and worst failures. For example, I love the pineapple chunk from my last harvest and the liberty haze growing right now looks like it will be fantastic, but the purple punch a couple grows ago had a poor ratio of seeds sprouting and I had a couple with many growth abnormalities. I am a glutton for punishment because Barney’s was the first supplier I checked for the summer grow (and they were sold out of most).

[DaGreenBlazer]

That's interesting to hear cheers dude and i know what you mean about 1st brand loyalty - mine is Royal Queen Seeds who I've always loved since 1st purchase lol!

Tbf to Barney's Farm, this is 1st and only seed I've ever done of theirs, plus it was a promo freebie seed too, so I'm not complaining too much and though I won't get loads off it, the buds still look gorgeous and smell incredible. My only reference to them otherwise is i remember back when they launched alot of people online had problems with dodgy genetic issues and though that was quite a few years ago now, it did always stick with me - tbf again, i have seen alot of grow reports/diaries recently though where people really rate them and they grow amazing, so it could just be initial problems with them getting breeding stock established, but overall there's so many more seedhouses out there i want to try first that I'd only do BF again atm if it comes as another freebie.

[BaccaRacca]

Slow grow was the first sign that really bothered me with the Blue Dream. Growth rate slow down came before the leaves started really acting up. I have photos below. Thanks for replying. It took me some time to reply, so I could see what my changes were doing and share photos, seen below.

[SoOrbudgal]

Bummer DeadlyFruit when i first began to purchase seeds Barney's PP was my favorite grow at the time. I still drool about wanting to grow it again. I got to many now that been sitting so that's that story

[DeadlyFruit]

SoOrbudgal In fairness to BF I should say that I also had a purple punch outside that was my most colourful plant ever and grew just fine but in general PP was not a successful strain from my experience and the taste/smell were just middle of the road. Again in fairness to BF it is possible the seeds were not well treated by the distributor but that seems more like it would cause just the germination problems rather than abnormalities. It is unfortunate because I see they use purple punch in other hybrids, probably to try to gain the purple.

I love their pineapple chunk, and the mimosa evo and liberty haze are both growing gangbusters as we speak. It’s possible I could just have had a bad batch of the PP.

[PeterMatanzas]

this is interesting - I've never had a problem with Barney seeds. I think the first time I bought them was 5 years ago. Latest indoor Barney grows were Orange Sherbert and Glookies; last summer had a Dr Grinspoon outside.

[SoOrbudgal]

I get it i've been disappointed with my wedding cake but it was first time i grew it so i may of treated her as the rest of the tent not realizing she needed different strenghs or ??? just not really good buds. I'm hearing alot of good things about that chunk and i have grown lots of different haze strains. Yes perhaps she was not the best of the pheno seed sent to you?? We are at the seed sellers mercy poo poo

[9fingerleafs]

I grow about 6 strains consistently. One is an og that really doesn’t like too much potassium. Another strain is always hungry for more nitrogen. One very afgani is super hungry for everything. Some of my crosses like high ppm in general too. But one of them gets totally stunned if the ppm is too high. Showing deficiency of iron and stops growing.

The only thing I can do is find a middle ground where the most plants are happy and that’s 850 to 900 ppms. About 250 of calcium nitrate and 600 of jacks hydro.( called peters professional in my country)

[BaccaRacca]

Interesting feedback, thank you. I've found that between the GG#4 and Blue Dream there is no middle ground.

[DeadlyFruit]

9fingerleafs PPM of nutes is not something I have watched all that closely in the past but maybe I’m missing out on an opportunity. I just do the half strength or a little more thing and then watch for tip burn or other negative indicators, which gives me numbers around 550-750. Do you suggest 850-900 a better benchmark to target and then watch for impact and adjust as necessary?

[9fingerleafs]

No. Every grow it’s different. I grow outdoor and the plants get a solid 11 hours of direct sunlight So the flowering ones actually go a bit deficient specially on nitrogen while the veg ones can get stunned by the high potassium phosphorous. You are doing well learning what your plants tell you. I have a perpetual grow flowering 4 plants a week. Most of them clones. So I can tweak and adjust to try to keep most of them happy at different stages. I use the same water for seedlings, veg and flowering plants

[DeadlyFruit]

Thanks for the wisdom. I know your work pays the bills so I tend to put more weight in your opinion 🙂

[homegrown]

The only difference i have noticed is between sativa and indica strains. I always grow a couple of each(indica and sativa) and found that the sativas dont like as much nitrogen as the indicas. They always seem to show tip burn really fast.

[DeadlyFruit]

Good intel! I was thinking of growing that heirloom saliva ‘Dr Grinspoon’ in the fall so I have to do some saliva research.

[BaccaRacca]

That's generally what is happening here, I think. The GG is more sativa dominant and the Blue Dream, indica. The Blue Dream is greedy. GG, if it were a man, he could live on Cheeze-Whiz, crackers and diet soda.

[BaccaRacca]

Thank you everybody for participating in this conversation. I've waited to reply to see if I had anything noticeable to show, and well, the difference has been stark. They just don't agree. If the BD and GG#4 were a married couple, they'd have married in Vegas while drunk, then woke up the following morning, declared WTF?! and divorced.

First up is the Blue Dream always looked kinda yellow. Early there seemed like there was some deep blue in the veins so I thought it just might be the strain. But she grew slowly and got sicker over time.

So here is the Blue Dream progression, from sickness to health:

April 1 Blue Dream looking sick:



Here she is after I changed nutes from 1 tsp of Miracle-Gro Herb & Vegetable to 1/2 tsp Miracle-Gro Herb & Vegetable & 1/2 tsp of Miracle-Gro All purpose.

Here's how the NPK would look. I divided by 3 to show relevance to popular brands made specifically for cannabis:

Standard Grow Mix
100% Miracle-Gro® Vegetables & Herbs

Miracle-Gro® Vegetables & Herbs: 100% 18-18-21 /3= 6-6-7


Big Nitro Mix
50% Miracle-Gro® Vegetables & Herbs + 50% Miracle-Gro® All-Purpose Plant Food

Miracle-Gro® Vegetables & Herbs: 50% x 18-18-21
Miracle-Gro® All-Purpose Plant Food: 50% x 24-8-16
= 21-13-18 /3 = 7-4-6

Note here I call it, "Big Nitro", but there is also a significant decrease in phosphorus and a smaller decrease in potassium. Something else I think is significant, as things went on, is that the All Purpose mix contains ammonia nitrogen, which the Herb & Vegetable did not. That may have affected the chemistry, too. It isn't just about NPK, but all that ion stuff, too.

April 8. Here you can she she is sick, but getting a bit better. This is a week before the initial post.



And here she is on May 3 -- lush, large and two weeks after flip. Due for a trim.



Great recovery, huh?

So I started using that mix on everything, thinking I'd been missing out in other grows, even though I'd never had any problems before.

The GG#4 tells a different story. Here she is on April 9. Happy, growing, just been deci-folded. Something new for me and my lateral anchor stakes.


But, uh-oh. April 11. Did I miss some watering? Was my mix off? What changed? I'm just starting to wonder.



Things weren't getting any better, so I wrote my original post. Got some good feedback from everyone, thank you. Here we are on April 18, the day after the post. Stuff is bad! Time for action! It's never too early to panic!



So on April 23rd, I flushed the darned thing really heavy, trimmed off all the ugliness, and went back to the original nutes.



Three days later, on April 26, the recovery was in session. Things are looking better.



By May 3, she was fully recovered and growing like ... well ... a weed.



What looks like a small change was a big one.

Thank you for reading. I hope this helps others.

BR

[bboyfromwayback]

That’s solid training! Great job👍🏻

[BaccaRacca]

Thank you bboyfromwayback. I've been following your tutorial and picked up some tips. I take this as a high compliment.

[RetiredGuy]

Very educational, thanks for posting. However, I am confused as to why you divided by 3? Aren’t NPK numbers given on all nute brands always in percent by weight of each element?

[BaccaRacca]

Good question, @RetiredGuy. I do that to compare what I'm using to the bottled nutes that are popular for cannabis. Most of those mixes are about 1/3 to 1/6 the concentration of the water soluble compounds that I use. By dividing by three I can more easily compare what I use to the nute recommendations I read on this site and in the forums.

One thing that interests me right now, since my perlite/peat mix is essentially hydro basic, is the development of soy hydrolysate fertilizer. It's a part of the Herb & Vegetable mix I use, but I've seen other brands, including some cannabis-specific ones that contain this stuff. I think it helps metabolize nitrogen and other substances more efficiently, hence my basic nutes being sufficient for the GG#4.

For more information about this stuff, here is a link to someplace selling it as a standalone product. I post it because it has some very good, straightforward information.

Organic for hydro, who'd have thunk?

https://customhydronutrients.com/fertinitro-plus-80-amino-acid-c-118_571_572/fertinitro-plus-one-pound-p-459.html