First grow Special kush #1 / white widow grow journal

[DankwingDuck]

Maybe tonight maybe in a week . We will see how motivated I feel afte changing the water .

[DankwingDuck]

I will be cutting clones from these.

[Obi-Wan]

A clone cut fresh will take 6-10 days to root. A seed germinated will take 6-10 days to pop from the soil. From this point in the seed grows faster than the clone in my “personal” experience, again this isn’t second hand or from a book it is personal experience. The idea idea that clones are faster fails to account for rooting time. The only advantage to running clones is that you don’t have to pay for a seed, that is it, period!!

[DankwingDuck]

Just to take a moment to update with some photos will do full update later tonight but wanted to show off my babies .

[DrPhoton]

Im only arguing about propagation/growing times.

#1
"It can take a little bit more time, again, because you have to wait for the seed to germinate, etc"

#1
"Because you are starting with a plant, and you don’t have to wait for the seed to germinate, you are saving a little bit of time."

#2 Royale Queen Seeds actually trying to argue against clones, because well they are a seed bank.

"The only tangible benefit of using the cloning method for a new grower is that the plant is already farther along in development than a seed would be, and you can hope for an actual yield sooner. If time is not an issue, this may not matter to you at all. It usually only shortens the entire growing cycle by about a month."

#3
"Another reason clones can be better is that if you are going to be growing repeatedly, using clones puts you on the fast-track to harvest, because you are starting out with a plant that is further along than a seedling, cutting about a month or more off the start to finish of your grow cycle."

#4
"As far as "catching up from seed"...I'm not sure that will ever happen. A seed is simply younger than the clone and will always be "x" amount of days younger than the clone is.

The timeframe is only one advantage of cloning. "

There is staggering evidence that cloning is faster, which theory supports. I have managed to clone a cutting with 5-6 nodes, not easy but once rooted, this is the stage of growth of a 3-4 week old seedling.

There are some interesting points that would be good to discuss. Like root structure. Although seeds develop large taproot systems, this is only really beneficial in outdoor environments where more srructural support is beneficial. The fiboruous roots of cuttings is more than satisfactory for indoor/greenhouse cultivation in hydroponics.

There is also the maturity aspect i mentioned earlier about clone leaves, but there is also sexual maturity. Allowing flowering to develop sooner and quicker with clones due to sexual maturity being more advanced. In the 4th cite, there is also mention of possible quality benefits of flowers due to this sexual maturity, but i dont think there is any evidence for that, just conjecture.

So to me personally and likely the opinion of most large scale commercial farms, clones are faster.

[Obi-Wan]

When comparing seed propagation in the same window as cutting a clone the difference ce is negligible. In other words you can cut a clone and it will root in the same time that it takes to germinate a seed and reach the same stage of growth. The vigor that is produced be seeds far outways any benigiys to cloning without a doubt. This isn’tt conjecture, science or preference, but a solid year of growing clones. Seeds give better product bottom line, and that is worth the expense of extensive testing. I have a friend that grows as a caregivegiverband he starts from seed, then he runs a second round from clone....his first harvest is always more vorgorous in terms of yield and quality....genetically a clone may be the same but that does not mean it will produce the same terpine profile or the profile....testing will always be different from one plant to another.

[DrPhoton]

Il certainly take a look at any content you find. However, with the large scale growing myself and close friends, we can get clones going faster than seeds. And this is the common opinion among the community

Put simply, once cuttings have established roots, their stage of growth is more further along than seeds are. As you are taking a cutting which has already developed for several weeks. Its also about the maturity of the leaves which have higher photosynthetic capacity once rooted.

[DankwingDuck]

I love you guys sometimes . So much debate and information exchange , this is exactly what I was hoping for .

[DrPhoton]

Most commercial facilities use clones, they use clones because they are stable phenotypes which are predictable. But also because they are faster to finish with, cutting propagation time down. They often have a room where they do strain research to find the best strains and the best phenotypes of those strains. I do not know of one commercial facility that primarily does seeds. Aurora have started with seed propagation using their own solutions to improve reliability and speed, however they still mainly clone. And i have had to research many of the top facilities for my current position. Some of these commercial facilities should be looked at for referencing.

Grewnhouse:
Aphria, elite.

Indoor:
Neta, aurora, canntrust, alpinstash, advanced grow labs, creekside cannabis, medmen (multi-tier verticle grow), tweed, the grove, silver state relief.

Many of these facilities use differerent fertigation systems, but typically the large scale facilities have massive RO systems that feed into dosing machines that inject nutrients into the solution. Most actually use some recipe of inert mediums, typically with coco coir as the base and use drain to waste drip systems.

Lighting is a whole lot more, which i could go all day on. But lets not ^.^

[IslandColas]

I have 37acees so the plan is once I get to that level that will be outside and that would be soil . Not to say that an indoor grow isn’t still going to take place .

Honestly, if you’re allowed to grow the 72 outdoor, I’d veg indoors and then flower outdoor. I’m not sure about your light cycle year round. But here in Hawaii we run 12-14hr days so you can flower anytime of year. Just throw it outside and it starts the flower cycle

[IslandColas]

I'll see what I can come up with in terms of references for you.

Seeds beat clones because of vigor and root development.

Germination rates are generally very high 90%+. In fact, the need to have all stalks produce further supports seeds, because there is no mother plant that isn't going to flower.

If you buy clones pre-rooted you still aren't going to beat seeds. I actually ran a micro experiment on that in my last grow. The clone ended up producing only 12g because she couldn't possibly keep up with the vigor of the seedlings and got shaded out.

Common seed related problems that you mention are not a serious issue for commercial growers working with trusted seedbanks and stable genetics.

Clones used to be really important because of sexing as well. Feminized seeds have largely destroyed this advantage that clones once held. Growers are now confident in running seeds in large grows without sexing the plants.

I can somewhat see what you mean. I already know you’re a seed pusher so there’s some biases lol and I know I will never get you to see my point (I still love you) but I still stand with clones for such a small operation. If he was given a Com license that was governed by canopy I’d be right there with you! Agreed to Disagree

[IslandColas]

Campesino I’m saying that any form of hydro, be it dwc or coco wouldn't be economical given the run off. Growing on a commercial scale from a financial stand point is easier if done in composted soil.

To clone or not clone commercially....if it were me I would pay to test each harvest and run seeds...I could test and verify each batch, and give the customer piece of mind...profit oriented CEO’s are driven by profit, long term planning CEO’s are driven to produce quality at a sustainable rate, because at the end of the day,quality drives the market and sustainably keeps it moving.

With limitations on plants being so low it would handicap the operation. Quality control and advanced testing can be done by a third party and save the company valuable resources especially at a startup stage. He’s not growing 100k square feet of canopy... he doesn’t need each plant to go to the lab. he’s growing 72 plants. He needs a qualified nursery that already does all that and provide the farmer with a quality product to start from. Any experienced medical grower will have each harvest tested for potency and quality so I don’t understand what you’re meaning by have every batch tested?

As a farmer I consider my job solely focused on product quality at the highest sustainability possible. Those are key building blocks to a successful farm, of any kind, and I assume he’s got that handled if he thinks he can produce commercially...

I’m trying to get you all to think beyond Cannabis and into commercial farming. Where you begin to count pennies to make your profit. My company makes money off of lettuce, and cooking herb varieties. These are crops with much smaller profit margins and a lot less room for error. I’m trying to instill the fact that we can all dream about growing for a job and say oh if it was my grow I’d only use seed. But when you’ve got someone to answer to, and for lots of money, you make sure that profitability is at the top of your list... without quality and sustainability you will not achieve real profitability... I’m not saying your wrong just a step behind

[Obi-Wan]

Campesino I’m saying that any form of hydro, be it dwc or coco wouldn't be economical given the run off. Growing on a commercial scale from a financial stand point is easier if done in composted soil.

To clone or not clone commercially....if it were me I would pay to test each harvest and run seeds...I could test and verify each batch, and give the customer piece of mind...profit oriented CEO’s are driven by profit, long term planning CEO’s are driven to produce quality at a sustainable rate, because at the end of the day,quality drives the market and sustainably keeps it moving.

[DankwingDuck]

I have 37acees so the plan is once I get to that level that will be outside and that would be soil . Not to say that an indoor grow isn’t still going to take place .

[Obi-Wan]

I totally agree!! The only thing I can add is that when selecting a medium you may want to look into environmental regulations as well. It’s not a coincidence that 50% of commercial growers choose soil as their medium. Environmental runoff of chemical nutrients is high on the list of violations for commercial hydroponic growers.