Pre-Flowers? Gaaaa!

[Mountainhigh]

I've got 40 plants in Roots Original organic soil in 1-gal pots; just started feeding FoxFarm GB and BB last week, along with a worm-castings compost tea.

They're just starting their 5th week now, all have 5 or 6 nodes, but none of them show male pre-flowers! They're a cross between Burkle and Nina Limone.

Do some strains pre-flower late or not at all? I've got to thin these suckers out-- re-potting males isn't in the program...

[PRIMO]

Be patient, or go 12/12 and force flower, thin out the herd, repot, then go 24/0 and hit em with all the light you got. Then be patient

[ZigZag]

Yup, I'd do the same thing. My experience is that even when the male "balls" start forming you've still got a few weeks before they actually begin to produce any pollen at all. They will be obvious before they get that far if you keep watch on them. Then you won't end up tossing a female by mistake. I've attached a few photos of male pre flowers and female calyx's/pistils. Looking at the position of stipules can be misleading because either sex can be crossed or not depending on strain and stage of development. Just stick by them for now. Happy growing!

[ZigZag]

They should start showing their sex pretty soon so hang in there and get your larger planters ready to go so you can transplant asap. The males will usually show their sex first so thats something going for you.
You definitely don't want to start tossing plants yet because you can't count on getting an equivalent number of each sex. Sometimes males can outnumber females. If you have to toss some then take the smallest and weakest first. I've been in the same situation before so I understand your pain. If you can put a few that you think might be males by a window or somewhere it can get some light then you could wait them pt and see what happens...while the more promising plants can stay under the grow lights,,,,?

[Mountainhigh]

Thanks so much to Primo and ZigZag. My frustration is mostly due to this website's info page stating that males declare themselves in the 3rd or 4th week. My plans were based on that; in the past I've usually grown from clones or feminized seeds.

I started 'way too many plants since I've got hundreds of seeds. Legally, I can only keep nine plants. Started with 50 (2 seeds in each cube), and have culled half of them-- there's one plant in each of 25 one-gal. pots now. I've only got room for 12 five-gal buckets-- and that's pushing it-- so I need to know what I've got before these get root-bound in the one-gal pots. I really don't want to force flowering and then try to get them back into veg. Primo was right, of course: Patience is key, but it's not my strong suit.

Another worry: I got excited and started too early. May 15 is the earliest it might be safe to move plants outside here, and these may be root-bound enough by then in even the 5-gal buckets to cause damage-- I really don't know.

Any thoughts?

[ZigZag]

Well...if you 're down to 25 then thats making progress. Most of the time I can sex them about the 4th week but sometime it takes until week 5. You should be there soon.
It becomes really apparent about a week after dropping down to 12/12. The one gallon pots should get you through for another week or so.If they are fabric you can wait until its time to water and pull the edge away, shine a flashlight down along the inside and if you see lots of roots then make the transplant to the 5 gallon or if you are good with getting some 2 gallon pots then go to those first. If it looks OK then leave them for longer in the 1 gallon pots. I usually end up being able to sex them about the time they need the transplant. Hopefully you'll be able to get them down to 12 before you have to put them outside.I don't think you need to worry about them getting root bound in the 5 gallon pots before moving them outside. A 5 gallon pot should support a 4-5' plant just fine. Then once you get them outside you can go into the ground or maybe a 7 -10 gallon container if you want. I've never done it but I've heard that some outdoor plants can get 10' or more!

OH_ the thing I think I'd be most concerned about is your current lighting photoperiod _unless your doing autos of course_you should have it on a shorter photoperiod _ like 14/10 or what ever will match the hours of daylight from dawn to dusk in your location. You want to make sure they don't go from 18 or more hours on while inside now and then drop down to leas than that when they go outside. Good hing about the transition is that inside the photoperiod ends soon as the light s come ob or off and outside it is much more gradual so you get about an hour before and after sunset that can be counted as "day light" hours.

[Mountainhigh]

ZigZag, that's incredibly helpful. Thank you.

The 2'x4' table I use just barely holds those 25 plants now, so re-potting to twelve 5-gal buckets means moving them to the floor; even that will be tight. It's a relief to read that the 5-gal. ones won't get root-bound by planting time.

The plants are on an 18/6 schedule now. Should I bring it down slowly? (The latitude here has 14.5 hours between sunrise and sunset in mid-May (16.5 hours of "daylight"); it gets up to just over 15 and 17 at the solstice.

Today is the equinox at this latitude.

Because I'm in a deep mountain valley that's almost a canyon, however, actual sunrise/sunset is later/earlier than the tables predict; on any given day, it's hard to guess just how much since the sun "moves" over different peaks and cliffs... I have noticed that my plants bloom and finish early here... That's good since frosts are early, too.)

Will shortening the photoperiod hasten pre-flowering at all?

[ZigZag]

I'd probably not reduce your lighting period at this point while they are inside. It won't be long until you're daylight hours will be close enough....when your lights go out while they are inside the photoperiod is abrupt_ day to night in the flip of a switch while out side your have twilight hours before and after sunset_ usually about 30-60 minutes depending on latitude. even that dim light should help increase the daylight hours to match close enough. Then_ I guess depending on outdoor temps at night you could put them outside. The natural decrease in the photo period after the summer equinox should put your plants into flower as it progresses into the Fall. And like you mentioned, being in a tight valley could reduce that Fall photoperiod to come one faster than if they were in an open area. especially if the open sky faces more to the east or west than the south at either end of the day. Cheers!

[Mountainhigh]

It's now the 45th day since germination-- the middle of week 7. The males declared themselves with pre-flowers beginning the 41st day; by the 43rd, it was obvious that sixteen of the twenty-five plants were males. They were summarily dispatched that night. I repotted (from 1-gal to 5-gal pots) the nine that were left. They were all root-bound, with thick webs around the insides of the pots, but they've survived the transplanting well so far...

I have reached a firm conclusion from this effort: I will not attempt a grow with un-feminized seeds again. Why?

1) It's too expensive-- mainly in time wasted. Looking for pre-flowers for four weeks was annoying, to say the least. Would anyone care to guess the number of nodes there might be on a six-week old plant? That's the number of places, times two (you need to check both sides), then times twenty-five, that I had to look at with a loupe for teeny-tiny pre-flowers... Then try to keep track of which nodes you've already checked while you're doing the other side of the plant... Every strain is different, and you can't know until you grow it when the pre-flowers will appear.

2) It's too uncertain-- a friend recently grew twenty plants from bag seed and all of them turned out to be male; another friend grew twelve, and only three were female. Statistics fall apart with every single coin toss.

3) There was definitely root damage to the plants, but I couldn't afford to move them all to five gallon buckets until they showed-- I don't have enough room, enough lights, or enough money. Right now, the local dispensaries are selling top-shelf feminized seeds for around $15 apiece (Nirvana is much cheaper, but they're backed up for about a month); $15 is what it costs to get a plant's DNA tested for gender-- you can find out what it is any time after week three, but it might be bad news...

Conclusion? Buy feminized seeds from a good seed bank-- or get some clones. It's worth the money spent. (Clones have no taproot, BTW. It matters if you're growing outdoors...)

I now have nine plants that may be female-- they haven't shown yet, but the other sixteen were definitely male, revealing it within a couple of days of each other. I'm hopeful, but we'll see...

[ZigZag]

Good to hear you got some females. Yeah, regular seeds can be expensive since they aren't all going to be useful_ unless you're doing your own breeding and want some males, and the first 4-5 weeks present challenges for those with space and lighting restrictions. Myself included. But if you want to try some of the new first generation strains coming out all the time then feminized seeds will not likely be available for a while. For instance a lot of breeders have recently been breeding new strains that are both high THC and CBD and also strains that have high percentages of other specific terpenes that provide a variety of benefits. But still I always grow a few feminized strains to make sure I get some reward for my efforts. Hope your girls turn out better than your expectations!

[Mountainhigh]

Thanks, ZigZag for your encouragement! All nine have turned out to be females! I got a little down about how fast these girls were growing, though, and didn't check in here for awhile... I know that sounds weird (many would like to have my problems), but there's no "holding pattern" for a veg cycle-- they get bigger or die. I could practically see them growing, getting closer to the lights daily, which were already raised so they were smack up against the low ceiling. The plants were in five gallon buckets and were well over three feet above them by the end of the third week of April-- and that’s tied down! The Sea of Green was letting no light past the surface. Root-bound for sure and almost light-burned, the girls were finally moved outside on May 1-- too cold, too early, but I had no choice. (I live on the 40th parallel at 6500 feet/2000 meters; the last frosts come late here.)

I have a cheap ($75.00) portable greenhouse I'd bought and never used; I set it up April 30 over the nine humongous holes I'd just dug and ran a heavy-duty extension cord to it for a heater and a fan. (Without those things, the greenhouse would be a freezer at night and an oven by day.) The next day, it was time to do the deed.

Transplanting was hell on wheels-- without wheels. Imagine carrying nine five-gallon buckets full of wet dirt with nearly four-foot tall plants in them over a hundred yards of uneven, rocky terrain and a spring rain-filled creek, under low-hanging branches...

I'd never removed large plants from buckets before; that was high stress, too. The first two extractions went well-- I ran a nearly flat trowel around the inside edge of the buckets to loosen the root ball; then I pulled up gently with both hands on the base of the stalk while I held the bottom of the bucket between my feet... and, voila! The whole root-bound mass came out and slid perfectly into the hole I'd dug.

The third bucket didn't work that way, though. When I pulled up on the stalk, the root ball tore in half, leaving the bottom half in the bucket; people probably heard me scream in the next county. All I could do was put some extra dirt in the hole, set the remaining plant and torn roots in it and hope for the best. With the next bucket, I tried extra hard to make sure the ball was loose all the way down... but it happened again! Agghhhhhh!

It was getting dark-- and cold. Desperate, I tried a different tack. Since the plants had been tied up for the carry, I turned the bucket on its side, laying the plant in the dirt while I pressed the bucket into an oval shape, turning it a couple of times and repeating the action; then I lifted it a few inches and shook the whole thing until the root ball began to move. I grabbed the stalk and pulled--and it all came out! It worked. It worked for the rest of the plants, too. They looked pretty badly root-bound, though-- if not ripped to shreds-- and my hopes were fading.

I wasn't done, though. Tomato cages had to be put over the plants. (Wind can be pretty bad here, and the plants weren't getting any smaller...) The lowest circle on the cages was only 8.5" in diameter, and even the tightest-tied plants were bigger than that. There was a lot of unintentional super-cropping and intentional expletives, but they were finally installed. I turned on the heater and the fan, zipped the door shut and stumbled to the house.

When I went out the next morning, I expected to see seven struggling plants and two ICU cases-- but they all looked great! I could hardly believe it-- they looked at least as good, if not better, than they had before I moved them!

And now for the commercial (which I don't get paid for): I'd lined all the holes and sprinkled all the sides of the root balls once in them, then top-dressed-- with Down-to-Earth's "Bio-Live". I believe that stuff saved the two torn root systems, and did the others a lot of good, too. None of the plants ever showed showed any signs of transplant shock; their seemingly unstoppable growth rate slowed for a few days, but that was to be expected. I realize my evidence is anecdotal, but I have no other explanation... Using "Bio-Live" was the only thing I did besides digging and watering. I'm a believer.

[ZigZag]

That is awesome! What a relief_ so good! Great timing on the outdoors greenhouse setup. And great luck with the transplanting. I've never tried transplanting from anything larger than a one gallon pot Just because I'm afraid of messing something up. we live on the 59th carrell so outdoors doesn't work for us_ but I'm going to sprout some seeds and plant them in a friends greenhouse by the end of this month. let then go on natural light schedule and see if they flower before it gets too cold. It now staying above 45 at night and getting up to 60 in the day so things should be ok. I'm going to select a photoperiod and an auto strain that is are cold reistant and fast to flower and see what happens. Why not? These plants look like they are going to be huge. Think about pruning some of those branches off down towards the bottom of the plants and your main cola(s) at the top will be larger and more prolifi later on. Check out the pruning and defoliation tutorials on this site. Lots of good information. Hope you grow goes well this summer and that they come into flower on time!

[Mountainhigh]

Thanks again, ZigZag. 59th! Wow, you're up there... Sounds like you're close to sea level to have lows above 45-- we're still hovering at 40 degrees at night. And, yeah, pruning is the next step after I'm sure the girls have settled in. They do look like they're gonna be huge. If they don't finish before the first frost forecast, I'll probably have to tie them down to get the greenhouse cover back on-- if I can! Still got over a month until the solstice, so almost three more months of veg... yikes!

Just put up a post asking about the temp sensitivity of Burkle. You don't know anyone who's grown it, do you?