Sublingual Thread

[Jason]

I decarb'd some flower in the Lift. Made an EverClear tincture. 1 gram of flower to 1 oz of alcohol. Soak, strain. Measured 20 ml and evaporated the alcohol. Put the resulting goo/tar under my tongue.
Uh..........strong effects.
I'll try to post more later.
Anybody else try this?

A bit of goo on a toothpick, properly positioned, seems to dissolve and take effect quickly.
With no ugly taste.

[alltatup]

I have goo in the freezer made the same way, but I never even thought of putting it under my tongue. I will try it in the morning... I'm kinda scared... What if it tastes really bad...

[Jason]

I have goo in the freezer made the same way, but I never even thought of putting it under my tongue. I will try it in the morning... I'm kinda scared... What if it tastes really bad...

Tastes spicy like what you smell. My fear was putting a dang piece of TAR tasting crap under my tongue that would take hours to wash away.
No such problem.
Pressed through a potato press with coffee filter paper cut to fit, the resulting juice was not foul.
More green looking than I expected, but spicy, toffee, perfume tasting. Definitely strain defined. Like tea or coffee.

Effects are fast with under the tongue. Very fast. Medicinal.
Full body. Plus head as ingestion is pretty close to the brain.

Whew......

[alltatup]

I will report tomorrow.

[DoctorJohnson]

Hey Jason - This interests me very much since I have come to the conclusion that sublingual administration is bulls*it--that nothing is actually crossing over from the tongue to the bloodstream but that people are just swallowing the stuff eventually and it's hitting them that way--through the digestive tract. However I would be very happy to be proven wrong.

If your gram of bud was 15% THC and you extracted 100% of that, that means you dosed with 150 mg of THC(!). Colorado and Washington have set a standard edible dose at 10 mg, so you got 15x the state-sanctioned dose, which puts you into Marureen Dowd territory.

Me, I've tried 20 or 30 milligrams of THC in a tincture--enough to get me high when swallowed--but it did nothing for me if I kept it under my tongue for 20 minutes without swallowing, so I have just assumed that people are kidding themselves about sublingual. Before anyone tells me I'm wrong, please try my experiment of dosing sublingually without swallowing, spitting everything out at the end, and report what happened.

Like I said, I'd love to be proven wrong. Sitting around for an hour to 90 minutes waiting for an edible dose to hit isn't a big deal, but it would be really nice to be able to have it hit faster and to spare my lungs.

Good thread. I hope to learn something new (or maybe just to validate my test results with more experimenters).

[Jason]

I make a tincture of 1 gram of flower to 1 oz of EverClear. I usually do 20-40 ml. Wife and friends do 5-10 ml. One had trouble driving home while coming on to 10 ml. So I figure its pretty strong stuff. I evaporated 20 ml down to goo. Put half of it under my tongue, until it all disappeared. Which wasn't very long. Effects started within minutes.
A couple of hours earlier, I did a pre test. After scraping the goo off the glass container, some remained. So I moistened an Q tip with EverClear and wiped it up. Let the alcohol evaporate, then put the Q Tip under my tongue. That was encouraging enough (no bad taste and slight effect) to then do more.
I like the Q Tip idea. It keeps the good stuff in place and you just suck or chew on it.
I could imagine a dip/dry cycle to build up goo from tincture. Then under the tongue it goes.
When I drink the tincture (20-40 ml) I put it in V 8 over ice with a bit of club soda. Add vodka and you have a Bloody Mary. Effects in 15-30 minutes.
Sublingual works because of the blood vessels under your tongue. Its a well proven avenue to the blood system.
One reason I wanted to test sublingual was to avoid delays or disruption due to eating. I also have friends that just don't respond to edibles and I thought I'd have them test this out.

[Jason]

Re M Dowd. Edibles are dangerous and can be unpredictable. Particularly if you are not used to the effects of cannabis or know about the strength or source of the edible. Eating something with cannabis in it is not like drinking a beer. Reason being the dose is unknown. And one's response can be unknown. Caution is essential. Measurements based on experience is the only way to go. Everybody needs to work that out on their own.
I have friends that eat 500-1000 mg at a time. And say its a waste of time. And other friends that freak out at what might be 10-15 mg. So the response range to different doses of edibles is all over the map.
I suggest caution in consumption, always stay in a safe environment and find what works for you.

[D.A.A.S.69]

Morning Jason, I bet your friends respond to sublingual method, under your tongue is a super fast delivery, much faster than eating.
I can swallow a Suboxone, an Will not feel it, put it under my tongue it's a couple of
minutes before relief.

[DoctorJohnson]

I'm kinda scared... What if it tastes really bad...

Back in the days of early 70's shit weed, we used to eat the roach after smoking in an attempt to get as much THC as we could. Talk about tasting bad! A shot of tincture does tastes kinda herbal, but what the hell--it's a plant extract!

[D.A.A.S.69]

I use Suboxone Sublingual film, an trust me it works , except we don't spit it out, there goes your medicine.
It takes effect almost as soon as an intravenous injection

[alltatup]

Since I make my tincture with Everclear, I dilute with orange juice.

[alltatup]

This morning, I swabbed a rice-grain size bit onto a toothpick and held that under my tongue and swallowed. An hour later, it was definitely getting me high. JASON THANKS SO MUCH for turning me on to this!!! I don't know why I didn't realize I could take it this way...

[Jason]

Happy to hear its working for you. I just wanted to minimize the volume of stuff I was consuming and to make it as easy and effective as possible.
With the Lift, decarbing is now the custom. Vaping is better and edibles in many forms can be made. Ground flower, tinctures, tar/goo, etc.
I think I'll try the Q Tip technique as that helps prevent swallowing. What we want to do is use those giant blood vessels under the tongue as the delivery path.

[alltatup]

I don't know if I could handle a q-tip under my tongue, but I let it sit there for a while. Mine tasted kinda funky, but not too bad.

[Jason]

I saw sublingual on the Lift box, read a bit about it, and know a little from hospital ER experience (staff). So I thought I'd try it. Fear of bad taste was the hold up.
Some I tried was not filtered with a coffee filter. It has a more unpleasant taste. The more golden liquid had a better taste.
Using a potato masher (like a large garlic press at 3-3.5 inches across) with coffee filter paper cut to fit, seems to work really well for cleaning up tincture.
Further experiments are definitely in order. Good luck to all with their experiments.

[DoctorJohnson]

> I make a tincture of 1 gram of flower to 1 oz of EverClear. I usually do 20-40 ml. Wife and friends do 5-10 ml. One had trouble driving home while coming on to 10 ml. So I figure its pretty strong stuff. I evaporated 20 ml down to goo. Put half of it under my tongue, until it all disappeared. Which wasn't very long. Effects started within minutes.
Again, that's a huge dose. Good to hear that effects started quickly, though. I will try again...

> Re M Dowd. Edibles are dangerous and can be unpredictable. Particularly if you are not used to the effects of cannabis or know about the strength or source of the edible. Eating something with cannabis in it is not like drinking a beer. Reason being the dose is unknown.
I would draw the line at saying edibles are "dangerous" if prepared and consumed intelligently (unlike Maureen's "nibbling.") Here where I live the dosage is right on the label, so not unknown. And you can easily calculate the strength of what you make using the arithmetic in my first post.

> I have friends that eat 500-1000 mg at a time. And say its a waste of time. And other friends that freak out at what might be 10-15 mg. So the response range to different doses of edibles is all over the map.
If they are really consuming 100x the minimum effective dose, they have some SERIOUS tolerance!

> I can swallow a Suboxone, an Will not feel it, put it under my tongue it's a couple of minutes before relief.
Different drug. Apples and Oranges.

> don't spit it out, there goes your medicine.
Spitting it out is just to test whether it's working sublingually or not. I still maintain that most people are not getting the THC in the dose from the vessels in the mouth but through the intestine.

> I swabbed a rice-grain size bit onto a toothpick and held that under my tongue and swallowed. An hour later, it was definitely getting me high.
Cool. But an hour later is how long it takes to hit when eaten, so I don't think you were getting much sublingual effect.

> With the Lift, decarbing is now the custom.
I assume that's some kind of appliance?

I'd still like to hear from anyone who will test administration sublingually but then not swallow.

[D.A.A.S.69]

I think your wrong ,but you can think anything you want to, I've been on Suboxone for a good many years, and if I spit out the juice it's a total waste, trust me, we have all tried that, because they don't taste good.
I can feel the Suboxone in minutes under my tongue, my Dr. Said that's the way most all medicines, will be before too long is in film form.

[Jason]

Yes, the Lift/Nova is a decarbo appliance. There is a whole thread about it. Load 7-14 grams in whatever form and turn it on. When the light is green, its done.

Yes, I have some friends that have a very high tolerance. One guy ate 1800 mg of medical, labeled chocolates from CO. He lost his appetite and thought the effects not worth the cost. He dabs at levels that would make most people comatose. Like a gram of BHO in one sitting. Like some YouTube fool. Other friends become anxious and have a lot of un fun for hours at anything over 10 ml of my Golden Tiger tincture.
Dosing is clearly a very personal thing and can vary greatly with the delivery system or technique. I would guess the suggested dosing in legal environments like CO/OR is more about public safety and legal protection from liability than scientific data about effective doses across an adult population. By whom and where was that data collected?
Which is just my way of saying, I ignore the suggestions and just do what works.
I wouldn't want a new customer to inhale a 100 mg gummy bear and start flipping out in my store or in the parking lot. Or worse read about something tragic the next day.
Its sort of like selling alcohol to non drinkers with no labeling about proof or percent of alcohol. Even when edibles are labeled, individual reactions to an identical dose will vary from zero to un happy camper.

I think the danger is in over doing it based on a lack of experience. Also, some people just don't react well to cannabis. I have a friend from Europe that can't take it at all. Zero. Can't be in a room with fumes or smoke. He only gets anxious, feels aggressive and angry. There are a lot of places he can't go in his native Amsterdam.

Sensitivity also does not seem related to body weight, as alcohol can be. I have a friend that weighs in at about 320 lbs. His tolerance for my Golden Tiger is less than a quarter of mine and I weigh 160.
He gave me a brownie he makes that knocks him over. To me it was just a brownie. No effects at all.

Sublingual is well recognized and well documented way to deliver medications. Look at those large blue blood vessels on the bottom of your tongue. Not a lot of skin between your meds and that blood. Swallowing the meds is not part of the protocol.

I agree ingestion and digestion would seem to destroy or lessen the amount of THC that is absorbed. I have an iron stomach and can eat just about anything, never had heart burn and live on habanero peppers I grow to counter my allergies. That's worked for over 25 years. So I'm assuming strong digestion is happening.

It will be interesting to hear about other peoples experiences. I have a Q Tip drying out now for tasting and testing later. The Q Tip also keeps that bit of goo from going where I don't want it to go.

[DoctorJohnson]

Good post. Interesting about the variability of people. I have a couple of chronic pals in Hawaii who smoke up daily before breakfast(!) and who have been high for decades. One hit of Maui Wowee finger hash that incapacitates me doesn't faze them in the least (not surprisingly).

> Sublingual is well recognized and well documented way to deliver medications.
Understood and of course I have heard about things like people taking nitroglycerin for their heart by putting the capsule under their tongue, but different drugs are going to dissolve/diffuse/absorb differently. THC is essentially a non-polar resin and so not very soluble. Like I said, I would love to have sublingual work for me so I'm not waiting an hour for the stuff to hit (on an empty stomach--up to 4 hours on a full stomach).

> I agree ingestion and digestion would seem to destroy or lessen the amount of THC that is absorbed.
I can't find the link to a great article about "first pass metabolism," but basically my understanding is that THC from the digesting tract stops first at the liver (the "first pass" part) which removes about 80% of the THC before it gets to the bloodstream going to the brain! That's why you need about 5 times as big a dose for edibles as for smoke/vape, which hits the brain before the liver. Fascinating stuff if you are interested in the science...

Here's a quick link about first-pass metabolism. Hey, it occurs to me that sublingual probably wouldn't hit the liver first. I really do need to try it again. Maybe I'll head out to the kitchen right now and get out the tincture and evaporate some down as you suggested...

[alltatup]

Digestion doesn't remove 80% of the THC;
"What is especially interesting about THC metabolites is that their levels in your body can be more than 10 times higher if you take cannabis in an edible form rather than through other routes (for example, smoking or vaping). "http://profofpot.com/11-hydroxy-tetrahydrocannabinol-potency-edibles/

[PRIMO]

Cut out the middle man, Make some glycerin suppositories and well...you know.

[Jason]

"Booty bumpin'".
That's another thread.

[Jason]

Cool.

I'm not a student of digestion, other than knowing chewing is where it starts. The first pass/liver thing is very interesting and could explain why some people can chow down in hundreds of mgs of THC, or more, and just feel ripped off. And others take a smallish dose and are wigged out for hours.
Know thy self in that regard. It doesn't seem to be as linear as something like alcohol. Speaking of which I have a neighbor of Chinese ancestry, that can not tolerate any alcohol. Dude can't drink a beer. Some part through he gets dizzy and feels like shit. He has no enzyme for breaking alcohol down, so it goes into his blood at 100%. Or close. He's a Fee Bee, so I haven't really asked him to test my edibles. : )

My understanding of the Big Pharma under tongue drugs are those that can't survive digestion and where a direct delivery path, other than injection, is desired. Swallowing those would probably neutralize the effects or benefits.
I was talking to a friend about this. He said "Let the dude put a bit of Peruvian flake under his tongue and post about that." Its an old Wall St. trick from the '80's to keep one's nose clean. Its best not to talk in the next meeting. Just kidding of coarse.
Not.

Good luck with your tests.

[DoctorJohnson]

Cut out the middle man, Make some glycerin suppositories and well...you know.

I read an article about that recently (subtitled "Why the posterior is superior"). They got it to work, but they were taking enormous doses to get an effect.

[DoctorJohnson]

I have a neighbor of Chinese ancestry, that can not tolerate any alcohol. Dude can't drink a beer. Some part through he gets dizzy and feels like shit. He has no enzyme for breaking alcohol down, so it goes into his blood at 100%.

Alcohol dehydrogenase. Lots of people of Asian extraction seem to lack it. I used to drink with a couple of half-Japanese girls, one of whom would turn scarlet when she drank. It didn't stop her though. Teenagers...

"Let the dude put a bit of Peruvian flake under his tongue and post about that."

Been there, done that. That's the substance as a hydrochloride that's very water soluble and happily numbs any mucous membrane it comes in contact with. But the free base of that same substance is gummy stuff that's basically insoluble in water, kind of like our friend THC...

I have some Oleum Extracts pure THCA crystals (the un-decarbed THC acid) that should dissolve in water, but I wonder if they would be effective since that would be skipping the heating/decarb process. One sure way to find out!

Good luck with your tests.

I have 40 drops of tincture evaporating in the kitchen right now. Fun chemistry!

[Jason]

Eating THC-A will do nothing. If you had a Lift, you could decarb it and check out the effects based on absorption.

Yeah, the Peruvian stuff, being water soluble, is a poor analog. Point was to check out the blood delivery system behind your smile.

40 drops? How many milliliters? Everything I do is measured in ml's. Also, how much flower to alcohol did you use to make the tincture?

Good luck with your tests.

[DoctorJohnson]

> Eating THC-A will do nothing. If you had a Lift, you could decarb it and check out the effects based on absorption.
I can decarb THCA right in my vape. And fresh herb on a cookie sheet in the oven (220F for 100 minutes)

> 40 drops? How many milliliters? Everything I do is measured in ml's. Also, how much flower to alcohol did you use to make the tincture?
There are about 25 drops or so of ethanol in a milliliter . The tincture is about 15 to 20 mg/ml. I don't need much to feel it, so 40 ml does the job.

Update: I put the evaporated green goo under my tongue at 3:30 and didn't swallow till 4:00 and didn't feel anything, so no rapid sublingual onset for me. After I swallowed and it got my digestive tract, effects started on the usual ( no sublingual, just swallow) schedule--slightly buzzed about an hour and a half later.

[alltatup]

You need a larger dose if you don't feel anything.

[Jason]

My second test with the Q Tip was disappointing. Not the effects I expected. Which I believe to be a strength or amount issue, not a delivery issue. So I will work on making stronger goo. Most predictable effects for edibles here, is drinking in fruit juice. 20-40 ml in V 8 does the trick.
You are correct you can decarb in a vape or oven. Read about the Nova/Lift. I have an induction digital hot plate with hot oil bath set to decarb temps. I float the flower in sealed alum. herb jars in the hot oil. So I've been doing that a while. The Lift gives me a much stronger result, ie I believe more of the THC-A is converted to THC for consumption.
Good luck with your experiments.