LED equivalents?

[Kobayashi]

Where exactly do manufacturers get their claims of equivalents from?

i am using a viparspectra 450 (200w) which they claim is equivalent to a 400w hps. Do they relate this to yield or light penetration?

Whilst I’ve been using the viparspectra for veg I think I’m going to switch to a 600w HPS light for bloom as I don’t want to end up with a poor yield after all this effort.

Comments and opinions very welcome.

[tyler_ hobbyist]

What that is is the max amount of power the units bulbs can put out before burning out it shouldnt even be used.

[tyler_ hobbyist]

Thats why every company prgrams there led drivers to different wattages even tho they all use the same 5w double chiped diodes or what ever diodes that company uses.

[tyler_ hobbyist]

The led drivers are what give the bulbs there wattages. U can add more drivers for ur units and the power/light intestity will go up but no one ever does because it decreases the life of the diodes.

[ZigZag]

"Equivalents" are relative to a lot of other factors when comparing LED's to lamp lights like HPS. Watts are relative only to how much power the lights draw. When a manufacturer claims their 200 watt LED produces the same amount of light as a 400 watt HPS, then I'd take that with a "grain of salt". The most important considerations are PPFD_ basically how quickly the light coverage drops off horizontally and vertically from a specific mounting height above the canopy (for each light if you have more than one)_ and color spectrums. If your lights have a dimmer or a control on the ballast that enables you to cut back on the wattage then you can dim them and increase the light as needed_ up to the maximum set by the manufacturer. Nice feature to consider because you can keep your lights closer to the canopy without burning them. Especially true for LED's and high power HPS/MH.
But like Tyler says_ if you increase the wattage coming to the lights you will likely burn them out much faster, maybe even turn your setup into a fire hazard!
You can increase your PPFD for a specific space by mounting your lights closer together if you're using more than one. Most manufacturers provide charts of how much drop-off there is from any specific type of light they produce.
Goal is to provide as even coverage over the entire canopy as possible_ doesn't mater if you use LED or lamps. The closer they are to the canopy the narrower the "cone of light", which means you'll need more lights per square meter.
I'm now using two 4' long LED's mounted 16" apart and in the 4x6' grow space they provide the best PPFD at 24-36" I've found using any lights_ relative to my grow space. But I have to be careful I don't burn my plants because these lights also have very deep penetration into the canopy_ much more than HPS I used before. Heat's not a problem but intensity is.
Challenge is to find what works best for your grow space.

[Kobayashi]

Thanks for all your comments. I suppose what I’m asking is can you expect the same yields from a 200w LED as from a 400w HPS? If so is it because of better light penetration into the canopy? It seems that LEDs are expected to give 0.5g per watt and HPS 1.0g per watt, so I’m not sure how that works if there is equivalency. Sorry if that’s a stupid question.

[oldjarhead100]

I dont believe that you will get the same yield as hps

[Kobayashi]

Thanks. I thought not.

[tyler_ hobbyist]

I have done side by sides with leds hps mh and no you will not get the same yeild on average a true 200w led gives me 2.5-3 ozs dry weight. But thats all other condistions at optium and without any issues for the grow, as a newbie cut that in half, and if u end up with more than its a bonus

[tyler_ hobbyist]

By the way the closer ur light is to ur plants the more usuable light ur plants actualy get I have 2 leds true watts are 200w and 350w and both my lights are kept 4-5inchs from my plants but my co2 acomidates the extra energy I use 800-1000ppm while lights are on. And my rh is 16-30 percent. I have zero signs of stress. Without the extra co2 this would never happen tho they would be stressed to all hell lol the biggest thing to remember tho is the plants strain and genetics!!!!! If the seed bank says ur optium yeild wil be 250g m2 ur not gunna yeild as much as a strain 650g m2 even tho there under the exact same condistions.

[ZigZag]

I have to agree with tyler. Given the rest of your grow conditions are optimum then genetics are very important in regards to productivity. You can make more or less of a plants genetic profile through different training techniques_ lots of excellent information in the tutorials here in GWE. I'm not sure what more to suggest than the above but if this is one of your first grows then stick with one type of light and dial in all the other factors like medium, nutrients, airflow, watering, etc. Take the lights you have and like tyler suggested once your plants are into their 7th node or so then start lowering the light(s) an inch every day or two and watch them carefully for signs of stress. These guys like a lot of light but the specifics of the light you're using in the space you have need to be tweaked for the strain your working with. They all have slightly different needs.
LED's typically have better penetration down into the plant below the canopy than lamps but all said you want to find the "sweet spot"_ which for any type of lighting means keeping as even a canopy as possible.
And really, the best colas are on the top 16" of a plant so that's the target area. Keep your canopy as even as you can and work to find the sweet spot for your strain and you'll be on your way to some awesome home grown!

[NebulaHaze]

Just to clarify, in a regular setup you do not want to keep most LED grow lights closer than 18" or so. Otherwise the intensity of the light can burn or discolor your buds and cause deficiencies on the top leaves, even if the nutrient and pH levels are on point. This may not be apparent at first, but symptoms often really set in after about week 6 or 7 of the flowering stage because plants are no longer making new leaves. Even 12" will burn most plants and hurt your yields because modern LED grow lights have powerful lenses that focus light downward. It's important to listen to the manufacturer's specifications to start when it comes to light distance.

If you follow the LED journals around here you'll see that keeping the lamp too close one of the most common reasons people have trouble with LEDs. But once you find that sweet spot, growers are getting fantastic results

[Flockshot]

Do you think it is time to say that with good LED lights (such as Vipaspectra), used properly, that a grower can reasonably expect a veiled increase on watts 'out of the wall' over MH/HPS of the same wattage?
From what I see, it has always been that HID beats LED, but with all the advances in LED it seems closer to a tie, or perhaps LED is starting to take the lead.

[NebulaHaze]

This is a very touchy topic, so I'm reluctant to answer this. I may get hate mail as a result of saying this. But I will say that, in my experience, HPS seems to very consistently beat LEDs for yields when you have a single grower that does a side-by-side with both. Or if you have both types of light in a tent with the same wattage, the HPS side seems to get better yields. But it could be a matter of user skill with the LEDs, as it's far easier to use HPS since you can basically look up how far to keep it based on the size and you're good to go. That being said, the only time I've seen an LED lamp beat an HPS watt-for-watt is when the HPS had old bulbs or the HPS lights were kept much further away than recommended for their size. However, for many growers, yields aren't the most important thing and LEDs have other subjective benefits. Plus, I've seen LED growers produce yields (1g/watt or more) that would easily beat most HPS growers!

[DrPhoton]

Yes i agree, the quality of the technology highly dictates an LED's performance. Haitz law is the ever increasing efficiency over time. History shows this and its only a matter of time until it will be indefinitely better. For now however its efficiency is only better than flourescents. I expect another 5-10 years until it reliably replaces high/low pressure sodium.

[Poppylon]

On the GWE the led info for viparspectra 1200w 524w draw. should get 9 to 14+ ounces. that is depending on the genetics, strain and perfect conditions. so if you go by .5gr per watt . you should yield 4.67 oz.
now the big questions is how many plants to get this amount. I don't think you could get this from autos.

[Flockshot]

If your light covers a 4x4 growing area then you want enough 'tops' to fill that area. It can be one big plant (which takes a longer time to grow) or four smaller plants that take less time to grow, or more, even smaller plants that you can grow quicker yet.
I have a light that covers about 3.5x3.5 and I always veg 4 plants. I don't want to take more than 8 weeks for veg, but I do want (what I consider to be) mature plants.
My 2c

[DrPhoton]

The metric equivalent is in the form of photometry. Which is practically useless for our needs in horticulture. For it to be accurate it would need to be used with radiometry. This explains the inconsistency accross manufacturers. Its made even wrose when they decide to use the metric systems to their advantage and compare only point measurements and then claim its equivalency based on that. You cannot rely on point measurements as they do not provide enough information on a lights output capacity. Because LED's use optics, they betray the traditional point source parameter for the inverse square law. Manufacturers know this and use it to their advantage through marketing. Here is a good article that provides some good pointers.

Also tyler had mentioned information about light source hight and increased plant production. This is not the case however. A light source where all energy is directed to the canaopy will be just as effective at a higher or lower hight level. The only time energy is lost from light is when it is converted to heat through reflective or resistive losses. Light does not depreciate through destruction over distance in space like it is commonly thought.
Keeping a plant between 500-700umols is actually more beneficial as you prevent the possibility of driving your plant into photoinhibition and reducing the overall plants efficiency.

[Jason]

I get crossed eyed quickly when looking at this stuff.
I have (2) inexpensive 600W LED's and (1) 315 CMH.
I've used both for hydro grows and both work well.
Previously, I had one WaterFarm with the (2) LEDs and one WaterFarm with the 315 CMH. They were separated.
I now have both WaterFarms together and all three lights on.
Is this too much light?
LED's are about 20" away from the girls, the 315 is at about 26".
Thanks for any insights.
Don't want anybody to get burned.

[tyler_ hobbyist]

What was ur yeild difference between ur leds and ur cmh? A lot of people will tell u different distances, u need to play with ur light and adjust it each day to find that sweet spot.

[Jason]

I think the yield differences I got were more because of the strain and not the light. The CMH looks to have better penetration just looking at the light going into the plant compared to the LED's I got $70 LED units from Amazon. So far, I'm very happy with them. Advertised as Full Spectrum with three colors of lights. The difference between my 1st and 2nd grow was a near doubling in weight. I kept pH under 5.5 as per my clone guy's suggestion for the Lavender 2. Other than that, no change between the two grows. I really credit the strain and nothing I did.
Into the second day with all three lights on and the girls seem to be doing fine. If anything the CMH is having a positive effect re veg growth. Next Wed. I change to Transition nutrients. I'll post a picture Tuesday. That way, all the pictures I post are a week apart for reference.
As for distance, I just go by mfg recommendations and what I see here. 2-3 inches would scare me. I've had to test that with a disposable plant of some kind. Probably not a cactus.