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can anyone exsplain why/how defoling increases yeilds?

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    #16
    First off, i looked at this objectively and went through all possibilities from a scientific stand point.

    I will cover the main theories behind the technique and what we know about each.

    Air And Light:
    A traditional theory is the exposure of air and light to the bud sites, increasing said factors by removing obstructing plant material to facilitate more growth. It makes sense when you first look at it and people have tried it and agree it "appears" to improve things. However a deeper look shows that cannabis is a 'Angiospermae' or an anual flower. Which contributes little to no photosynthate.
    Here someone called THC-Farmer describes his highly educated opinion and experience on the subject.
    He details an experiment where he had a control and a variable. With the variable he removed all leaves during flower, including the new developing leaves from the flower. He wanted to see if any photosynthetic capacity was viable from the cannabis flower only. To no surprise to myself or him, the plant died within days after. Many other science articles have shown this also, that flowers, even though containing some amounts of chlorophyll, typically do not hold the ability to photosynthesize. Its just not possible. The smaller but underdeveloped leaves do contribute to photosynthesis, however they cannot compensate enough to compare with more mature leaves.

    So exposing air or light does not appear to offer any advantage to the flower development. One could argue that reducing foilage will help with air movement and light penetration, however this is only going to end up with the same 'total' photosynthetic yield. All that is changed is where the photons will land. Infact exposing shade leaves could be harmful as i have previously said about shade vs sun leaves.

    Stress & Phloem Translocation:
    This was the more logical theory for myself, as it does seem possible but only lacks the evidence to support it.
    Studies on defoliation have showed that a majority of species of plants, show an ability or buffer to compensate for some type of structural damage during its life. Its almost expected by plants that some event will happen and that it be prepared. What defoliation studies have in common, is that plants are not negatively impacted by the loss of leaves up to a certain point (around 25%). It seems that a plant will typically have more leaves than it requires, almost as if history has taught it to anticipate the loss of leaves through enviromental factors. This was some of the conclusions by people conducting these studies.

    Now a plant holds the ability to store nutrients (carbohydrates) in its roots, this is its major sink during early growth and vegetation. However in the event of stress, injury or sickness, a plant may be able to redirect this stored nutrient through a process called phloem translocation. A lot is still unknown about this process but it does appear to function this way in some types of plants. These types of plants are ones where all top growth can be removed but still have enough stored energy to revegetate. Cannabis does not hold this ability but it may be possible that all plants have some degree of stored energy to respond to stressful events.
    In the defoliation studies some report the event where the variables grew taller than the controls. Suggesting that the plants response to reduced number of leaves caused them to branch out to create new leaves to sustain its level of performance. This response could be aided by phloem translocation. This also brings up the interesting prospect of why supercropping (i like to call it scropping) may increase growth and vigor.
    However, to all extent there has been no evidence to support this.

    Leaf Age & Exposure To Light:
    This is also a possibility however i would not consider this part of traditional defoliation and more selective that would really be classified as pruning.
    As a leaf ages, its ability to photosynthesize follows almost like a bell curve with a peak around 20 days.



    Here it can be seen how leaf age is very impacting on its photosynthetic capacity. As the leaf gets older, certain fundamental building blocks responsible for key aspects in photosynthesis, start to be reduced and focused on younger leaves. The amount of chlorophyll does not change. Its just the priority by the plant has shifted. This is why older leaves start dropping off at the bottom when the plant decides it is no longer needed.

    With more selective pruning of leaves, it is likely that energy wasted keeping leaves alive that provide very little in return may help develop a plant faster by directing energy where it is most efficient. To some extent plants do this themselves, like how leaves are abscent inside a bushy tree. We do this also by methods such as lollipopping or plant training. By developing a structure that is more efficient for a specific environment. As said however this is a proven method and is practiced throughout horticulture. The traditional method of defoliaiton is a non selective process that removes specific amounts of leaves at specific times. Whats usually practiced and is learned through experience is how much is too much, when & how often such a process should be used during a plants life.

    Evidence:
    This has been the most dissapointing aspect of my findings. Although then again maybe not.
    I looked all over for any and all controlled comparisons, comparing defoliated plants to controls. Unfortunately i found very few. The ones i did find showed clear indications of no improvement but infact a decline in yeild. You would think of all the people who have grown, they would have done such a simple experiment. However it seems people keep insisting on doing the method without controls and make subjective opinions on the matter. The most surprising one is where people defoliate and somehow are surprised that a few days later there is more growth. Then conclude the success of their experiement. I cannot enough make it clear how important controlled side by side comparisons are. This is to remove any and all variables that you 'may' or 'may not' expect, regardless of what you have experienced in the past. Visial bias alone is enough to convince somone of something that is not true, i have much experience with this from my audio engineering side. Not everything is as it appears.
    I have been through many forums and threads where people claim once and for all to answer this issue and would conduct a controlled grow. Only to almost always fall through and never return, countless threads encouraging people to post their results. Nothing, ever at all comes to light. Only the select few that seriously go through with it, end up showing the failure of defoliation.
    Most who are educated in botny or horticulture almost always seem to disagree with the method. Field experts in commercial grows do not employ techniqies, even though there are ways of doing it efficiently. Studies find no connection, no evidence of any kind. It can only really indicate one thing. We like cheeseburgers.

    If anyone has any other possible theorys or further information on the subject that may be interesting, please let me know. If there is anything that may show otherwise i am happy to know, however as it stands i am unconvinced. This is not the first time i have gone away on this subject and come back with the same conclusion.
    Written Articles:
    Light Metric Systems
    Using Light Efficiently
    The Light Cycle Debate
    Environment Conditions
    Grow Light Technologies
    How To Compare Grow Lights
    To Defoliate Or Not To Defoliate
    Having A Light Source Too Close

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    #17
    I would say there have been several experiments done on this but the people doing them didn't like the results and they never were posted.

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    • DrPhoton
      DrPhoton commented
      Editing a comment
      Id be happy either way, it would be win-win.

    • GanjaGed
      GanjaGed commented
      Editing a comment
      Right? It's silly to not post a negative result. Shit happens and we learn.

    • DrPhoton
      DrPhoton commented
      Editing a comment
      Yes

    #18
    Nice write up!

    I find it interesting that your graph and the aggressive defol each agree on the ~ 2 week mark.

    I've read THC Farmer and yes pulling all leaves wasn't a surprise in the results, but that isn't the case with the tutorials or the methods mostly used, that I've run across, so I'm not sure that it applies well. I'm still new so I got a bit to go before experiments are going to happen but it's in the plan. It's one of the main reasons I went with a 2 tray set-up rather than a single table.
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    • DrPhoton
      DrPhoton commented
      Editing a comment
      No it may not apply much, however i felt it enough to include to rule out this aspect anyway.
      Perhaps the idea of more airflow and light penetration needs more looking into, but i cannot think of anything else. I cannot see from a biological point of view how it could possibly make a difference.

    • Burny
      Burny commented
      Editing a comment
      I've seen it make a difference. It just wasn't a positive one for me.

    #19
    Im getting a new grow going and I will try 25percent defoling 1plant that is right beside one that wount be and every other varuable will be the same

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      #20
      I have done further research into the subject with some heavy reading in plant leaf anatomy and physiology, really really grand findings. Also branched out more on further theory and information. Including looking at the opinions of some of the most well respected cannabis botanists such as Robert C. Clarke, Mel Frank and Ed Rosenthal. Who all conclude what i suggest. I now believe i have enough understanding to answer the question for myself and to quantify any theory thrown at defoliation.

      I would love to digress all my research but i am exhausted from the last few days. What i will say, that from all this, what i have concluded is follows.
      No theory currently available on the issue stands up, after learning more about plant biology and relooking at the issue, it becomes more apparent how ridiculous it is.
      If you trust some of the best botanists in cannabis, follow their work, read their books. Then at least trust them when they also say that traditional defoliation has no bearing on improved plant performance.
      What does help and is commonly accepted is the traditional work of pruning in horticulture.
      Removal of plant matter to improve airflow, reduce humidity, prevent disease or to maintain a plants structure to facilitate an environment, are all viable methods to improve a plants performance. This can be things such as lollipopping, lower growth removal, plant training techniqies.

      I am always open to a convincing argument or new information so this is always welcome. However as far as i am concerned, this subject is now closed for myself.
      Written Articles:
      Light Metric Systems
      Using Light Efficiently
      The Light Cycle Debate
      Environment Conditions
      Grow Light Technologies
      How To Compare Grow Lights
      To Defoliate Or Not To Defoliate
      Having A Light Source Too Close

      Check Out Our Social Media Channels For More Resources:
      Facebook
      Twitter
      Instagram

      Comment


      • DrPhoton
        DrPhoton commented
        Editing a comment
        Pruning

        Indoors, the canopy absorbs virtually all the light, leaving little in the shadows below. For this reason, the understory below the canopy contributes little energy to the plant. Instead, it costs the plant nutrients, increases humidity, and stops air-flow.

        Pruning the lower limbs creates more air-flow under the plants and creates cuttings for cloning. It also forces the plants growth to the top limbs that get the most light, maximizing yield. These lower leaves and branches should be removed to create and open airspace.

        Ed Rosenthal.

      • DrPhoton
        DrPhoton commented
        Editing a comment
        Pruning.

        Under sunlight, you can expect to harvest a plant with strong colas on every branch, rather than one large top cola and much smaller branch, if you clip the top growing shoot about two weeks before flowering. Under weaker electric light, removing the top shoot may result in smaller buds and possibly a smaller harvest. Don't use late pruning as a general procedure under artificial lights, except as a last resort when one or two plants are outgrowing the rest of the crop. These fast-growing plants prevent the light from being positioned closer to all the plant tops. Bending and training these tallest plants is the best procedure.
        When the plants first start to flower, clip off the lowest, under-developed branches. These branches won't be worthwhile buds anyway, and by removing them, the stem and root system feed only the strong branches, which consequently yield larger buds. Removing lower branches also allows reflected light to better illuminate the whole plant and promotes better air circulation.
        Once the buds begin to form, remove some of the large fan leaves along the main stem. This allows the light to reach the lower buds and they'll develop more 'fully'. Don't over do it; once a leaf forms it produces more "growth energy" for the rest of the plant. If you strip a plant of its leaves, your lessening its capacity for growth. Removing most of the health leaves also can delay flowering. In an outdoor plot, plants stripped of leaves flowered two weeks later than their sisters that were left intact. Under lights, remove only some upper main stem fan leaves that shade lower branches.

        Mel Frank.

      • desertdan
        desertdan commented
        Editing a comment
        I am trying a partial defole outdoors. last 2 weeks I remove large inner leaves for more light on interior buds. Seems like it is a close trade off. Food or light.

      #21
      Can u upload some of the info/links for these well know botanists I would love to read more. Thank u so much for all ur reserch and time its well appricated

      Comment


      • DrPhoton
        DrPhoton commented
        Editing a comment
        You will have to read their books, they have produced some stunning work. Robert C. Clarke specializes in ethnobotany, which is the relationship between plants and people. His books are really heavy. I struggle to tackle it.
        Ed Rosenthal is not a botanist, however he is a horticulturist and has been very consistant with what i have read from him.
        Mel frank i do not know much about however he has aparently a very detailed book that i am planning to read soon.

        Robert C. Clark

        Mel Frank

        Ed Rosenthal

      • DrPhoton
        DrPhoton commented
        Editing a comment
        I have typed out some more information for you above on my earlier posts, regarding the authors thoughts on the subject.

      • tyler_ hobbyist
        tyler_ hobbyist commented
        Editing a comment
        Thank u very much that was a great read and I might have to go get there books

      #22
      We defoliate probably a bit more than a lot of growers would recommend but here's the thing with our grow - due to schedule, have to grow in the hot, humid months and can only keep humidity around 50 - 55 RH during flower. It's the best we can do with the space and using portable A/C and a decent sized dehumidifier. Humidity can get to high 50's even low 60's sometimes. So, we're pruning for airflow and separation of the leaves. If we leave the plants alone, leaves stack and we get wet spots. That with the borderline humidity concerns me so we pluck. At the end of the day, the grows give us nice buds and never had PM or mold (knock on wood). I'm sure a side by side may prove we could do better if we left more leaves on the plant. My point is that studies may show no advantage in yield by defoliating but in my case defoliation helps reduce risk of issues.
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      • DrPhoton
        DrPhoton commented
        Editing a comment
        Which is completely understandable and recommended. You might even find you dont infact sacrifice much yield at all. As i have described previously, plants can handle a little bit of plucking with very little downside effect.

      #23
      Can anyone tell me if adding co2 to the grow room would also provide the o2 the roots need ?

      Comment


        #24
        Co2 and o2 are different compounds so to ur question, NO co2 will not increase root oxygen. But that being said if ur enviromental factors are up 2 par then adding co2 is extreamly helpful.

        Comment


          #25
          I grow in soil with a 50/50 soil to perlite makeing my soil very airy and co2 doesnt effect my roots just possitive effects when the leaves breath in the co2, by the way the stamhata (leaf cells that breath co2) only open with blue light so even in flower make sure u have some blue in ur spectrum

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